Accommodation - personal data now required

[MikeyC]

It seems that after several pushbacks the new requirements come into force on December 2nd.
Accomodation providers will be required to collect a raft of personal data from all guests. This will include financial information such as credit card and bank details, full contact details and relationship between travellers.
The same applies to car hire companies.
The data is to be sent daily to authorities to help combat crime and terrorism.
Expect delays at check in.

 

[SabsP]

It seems that after several pushbacks the new requirements come into force on December 2nd.
Accomodation providers will be required to collect a raft of personal data from all guests. This will include financial information such as credit card and bank details, full contact details and relationship between travellers.
The same applies to car hire companies.
The data is to be sent daily to authorities to help combat crime and terrorism.
Expect delays at check in.

Which? What? Where?

An offficial link might be welcome.

 

[MikeyC]

Which? What? Where?

An offficial link might be welcome.

Non official link but from a trade body mentioning the relevant legislation.

https://www.businesstravelnewseurope.com/Management/Travel-groups-warn-over-enforcement-of-Spain-s-new-data-rule

 

[MikeyC]

Which? What? Where?

An offficial link might be welcome.

Text of the Decree:

BOE-A-2021-17461 Real Decreto 933/2021, de 26 de octubre, por el que se establecen las obligaciones de registro documental e información de las personas físicas o jurídicas que ejercen actividades de hospedaje y alquiler de vehículos a motor.

www.boe.es

 

[JCLima]

An old thread about it: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...nges-coming-for-spanish-accommodations.84192/

An older thread about it: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...-travellers-in-spain-starting-feb-2023.78423/

Edit: I’m assuming they’re all referring to the same thing; apologies if that’s not the case

 

[CWBuff]

Credit card AND bank details?!?! OK... I'm somewhat might be agreeable to give the 1st (although suppose I don't have one and paying cash for everything) but definitely NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS regarding the 2nd
Bank details,!?@?

 

[Pilgrim9]

Are the un-banked and un-credit-carded to be turned away?

 

[JCLima]

Credit card AND bank details?!?! OK... I'm somewhat might be agreeable to give the 1st (although suppose I don't have one and paying cash for everything) but definitely NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS regarding the 2nd
Bank details,!?@?

I'm assuming they need to keep the CC details if you pay with CC and the bank details if you pay with a bank transfer; if you pay by cash, those do not apply.

 

[Tincatinker]

Credit card AND bank details?!?! OK... I'm somewhat might be agreeable to give the 1st (although suppose I don't have one and paying cash for everything) but definitely NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS regarding the 2nd
Bank details,!?@?

that is not what is required. It's the "method" of payment ie: cash; credit card; bank card; bank transfer.

One simple avoidance is to pay cash. Or just take comfort that "they": the Bankers, and Elon, Steve, Sundar, Larry and all the rest already know who you are; where you've been; your shopping habits; favourite Coffee Chain and probably your shoe size and inside-leg.

 

[henrythedog]

I'm assuming they need to keep the CC details if you pay with CC and the bank details if you pay with a bank transfer; if you pay by cash, those do not apply.

You are correct. It is set out in ‘Anexo 1’as @Tincatinker says (in Spanish) as ‘the means of payment’ for the specific transaction.

I habitually pay for much of my social life in cash as it is not auditable. I have no concerns about the various official bodies, it’s Mrs HtD’s propensity to audit which keeps me awake at night.

There is a distinction in the decree between commercial and non-commercial organisations which may be relevant to donativos, but someone more thorough that I will have to opine on that.

 

[MaxHelado]

Accomodation providers will be required to collect a raft of personal data from all guests. This will include financial information such as credit card and bank details, full contact details and relationship between travellers.

A raft of personal data?
Reading the appendix in the decree it seems to me the hotel/albergue will want a copy of my passport (which they already ask for) plus my address, phone number and email.
They will only ask about the relationship if I am travelling with a minor.
If that’s the case it doesn’t seem like a big deal to me.

 

[MikeJS]

A raft of personal data?
Reading the appendix in the decree it seems to me the hotel/albergue will want a copy of my passport (which they already ask for) plus my address, phone number and email.
They will only ask about the relationship if I am travelling with a minor.
If that’s the case it doesn’t seem like a big deal to me.

You do not have to be truthful…..

 

[MaxHelado]

You do not have to be truthful…..

 

[Kathor1]

There is a distinction in the decree between commercial and non-commercial organisations which may be relevant to donativos

Yes, it would be interesting to hear from those who are directly concerned by this, i.e. those who manage and provide staff for non-commercial albergues such as donativo albergues, municipal albergues and parochial albergues.

There is an analysis by a European Travel Agents and Tour Operators Association (the analysis deals exclusively with data protection aspects and not with the additional administrative burden) which states that the new law, not yet applicable, concerns lodging activities open to the public and regulated by the corresponding sectorial laws - it is anyone's guess what these corresponding sectorial laws are. But whatever is exempt from these sectorial laws is also exempt from this new traveller registration law. For those who are exempt, the current traveller registration law will continue to apply as it is not suspended. Apologies for stating this, everybody will have read it themselves of course in the BOE.

At the end of the analysis, there is a list of possible actions. I don't know the date of this paper. As to their "Other actions": At least one question had been submitted in March 2023 (by C. Puigdemont and others btw) and there is a written answer; it does not say much. Another written question was submitted last month by two Spanish MEPs from the PPE and, as usual, there will not be an answer any time soon.

Like most of this stuff, this analysis paper is just yet another press release:

https://www.ectaa.org/Uploads/press-releases/DP-LED-Analysis-of-Spanish-Royal-Decree-933-2021.pdf

 

[Kathor1]

You do not have to be truthful…..

This has already been suggested and described in amusing detail in the older threads about this topic. What is overlooked in this suggestion: In the overwhelming majority of cases the personal data will be read electronically from an ID card - which is what every Spanish pilgrim has as well as the majority of other European pilgrims. ID cards often contain at least the name of the town where the pilgrim's residency is registered and, depending on the issuing country, also the complete address.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

Soooooo, still slightly less data than is required by most standard hotels?
I know that our names and passport details are kept as a means of locating last known position if someone should go missing. I'm not sure how effective it is as a method, but I see a certain level of sense to it if family and friends are able to tell the Guardia the last village they know their person to have been staying. I know that customs officials have been *for decades* asking children travelling "Who is this adult?" and "Why are you travelling to X'? (When I was 3 I told US customs that I was heading to Vegas with my dad to shoot some craps and hit the Blackjack tables; we were actually heading to visit family, but I'd likely overheard Dear Old Dad on the phone talking about the trip... That was in about 1970...
When my son used to fly to meet me overseas while I was on sabbatical, we would be checked and double-checked at customs... I don't think verifying -- to the best of their capacity -- the relationship of minors to the adults with whom they are travelling is a bad thing. We live in an ugly world and it's shocking that *any* children fall into the wrong company. On a global scale, sure it's a minuscule percentage... but it should be zero. So customs and hostelry businesses do what they can... and the law does not get written to say "We check everyone except nice pilgrims who would never kidnap or traffic a child". Laws are blankets and they cover all situations of a given category: in this case, travel, temporary commercial lodging)...

 

[bullingtonce]

It seems that after several pushbacks the new requirements come into force on December 2nd.
Accomodation providers will be required to collect a raft of personal data from all guests. This will include financial information such as credit card and bank details, full contact details and relationship between travellers.
The same applies to car hire companies.
The data is to be sent daily to authorities to help combat crime and terrorism.
Expect delays at check in.

Evil needs to be confronted and dealt with, pure and simple. Convenience or personal preferences are not relevant. The focus is on the victims, doing what can be done to minimize those who suffer. Not a bad concept to support. Chuck

 

[SabsP]

Yes, it would be interesting to hear from those who are directly concerned by this, i.e. those who manage and provide staff for non-commercial albergues such as donativo albergues, municipal albergues and parochial albergues.

There is an analysis by a European Travel Agents and Tour Operators Association (the analysis deals exclusively with data protection aspects and not with the additional administrative burden) which states that the new law, not yet applicable, concerns lodging activities open to the public and regulated by the corresponding sectorial laws - it is anyone's guess what these corresponding sectorial laws are. But whatever is exempt from these sectorial laws is also exempt from this new traveller registration law. For those who are exempt, the current traveller registration law will continue to apply as it is not suspended. Apologies for stating this, everybody will have read it themselves of course in the BOE.

At the end of the analysis, there is a list of possible actions. I don't know the date of this paper. As to their "Other actions": At least one question had been submitted in March 2023 (by C. Puigdemont and others btw) and there is a written answer; it does not say much. Another written question was submitted last month by two Spanish MEPs from the PPE and, as usual, there will not be an answer any time soon.

Like most of this stuff, this analysis paper is just yet another press release:

https://www.ectaa.org/Uploads/press-releases/DP-LED-Analysis-of-Spanish-Royal-Decree-933-2021.pdf

Thanks again @Kathor1 putting this subject in the correct perspective .

 

[Kirkie]

You are correct. It is set out in ‘Anexo 1’as @Tincatinker says (in Spanish) as ‘the means of payment’ for the specific transaction.

I habitually pay for much of my social life in cash as it is not auditable. I have no concerns about the various official bodies, it’s Mrs HtD’s propensity to audit which keeps me awake at night.

There is a distinction in the decree between commercial and non-commercial organisations which may be relevant to donativos, but someone more thorough that I will have to opine on that.

I have no concerns about the various official bodies, it’s Mrs HtD’s propensity to audit which keeps me awake at night
You are the giddy limit!

 

[Kathor1]

@SabsP: I had a quick look at the two previous threads about this topic. @JCLima had provided the links in post #5.

@Juanma who owns a private albergue on the Camino Francés and is well known to numerous pilgrims posted two links to petition&information platforms about Decree 933/2021. These webpages are still active and updated:

https://sites.google.com/view/pau-plataforma-alojamientos-un/pau​

https://www.change.org/p/control-de-viajeros-intolerable​

​

The second thread has a link to a petition by the Camino Francés Federation CFF but when I clicked on it (the CFF has organized a petition, accessible here,), the link was dead. In fact, I could not find anything about Decree 933/2021on their website. I don't know what this means (if anything ...). Have they given up or does it not apply to the albergues that are covered by the CFF or did I just not search carefully enough?

 

[MikeJS]

This has already been suggested and described in amusing detail in the older threads about this topic. What is overlooked in this suggestion: In the overwhelming majority of cases the personal data will be read electronically from an ID card - which is what every Spanish pilgrim has as well as the majority of other European pilgrims. ID cards often contain at least the name of the town where the pilgrim's residency is registered and, depending on the issuing country, also the complete address.

No ID cards for me…...

 

[Kathor1]

No ID cards for me…...

I know. But, in this respect, you belong to a minority of Camino pilgrims.

 

[Tincatinker]

No Bank cards? No Bus Pass? No Credit Cards? No Store Loyalty cards? They all contain, or link to, a vast array of your personal data and that data is available to anyone with a legitimate case to access it (and, unfortunately, to quite a few bad-actors with the inclination).

Edit: I should have added mobile phone to my list.

To be blunt ID cards and Passports realistically only serve now as an item of convenience to Border Control. The really useful information about you is readily available to anyone that wants it

 

[Kathor1]

To be blunt ID cards and Passports realistically only serve now as an item of convenience to Border Control

If you don't have one you may not know this: I use mine each time I go to hospital appointments to check in at a kiosk. The kiosk then prints out a sheet with information about the corridors and elevators I take to find my way to the doctor in question and a number that tells me when it is my turn to enter the doctor's room. I also use it at home as a safe login device to access my tax returns online and numerous similar documents such as a list of my vaccinations. Or at the post office to identify myself to pick up a parcel that was not delivered because I was not at home. An ID card has many uses. We don't use electricity bills for such purposes.

The really useful information about you is readily available to anyone that wants it

That is actually not true and I think that it is important to point it out - at least if one wants to have a meaningful thread about 933/2021. It depends on the data protections laws of individual countries for their administrative systems at national, regional and local level. Some European countries are amazingly lackadaisical in this respect (imho) and others amazingly strict as to which services can have access to which databases and for which purposes.

 

[Tincatinker]

It depends on the data protections laws of individual countries for their administrative systems at national, regional and local level

My point, I think, is that local, national and even EC data protection rules are but supersoft toilet tissue on a wet bum when the global corporations decide what they are going to do with your data.

Personally I look forward to the days when the microchip in my shoulder saves me the bother of carrying two bank cards, a bus pass, half a dozen “loyalty” cards and my assorted licences that permit me to carry and even drive an assortment of lethal weapons.

As an alternative, an ID card would be a practical option.

 

[Kathor1]

I was referring to public administration and not to private commercial enterprises. The Decreto 933/2021 has nothing to do with mega-banks, AmazonTeslaWalmart or the local bus company.

Spanish hotels are not allowed to use the personal data that they must collect on behalf of the Spanish authorities for their own commercial purposes. If they attempt to do so they risk high fines and they will be found out because they will have customers who will take legal action against such practices. We had this spectacular case some time ago with a Dutch tourist and a hotel on Majorca if I remember correctly where personal data of the guest was used for other purposes than the intended purpose i.e. traveller registration for the police forces. The fine was €15,000.

 

[dougfitz]

I habitually pay for much of my social life in cash as it is not auditable. I have no concerns about the various official bodies, it’s Mrs HtD’s propensity to audit which keeps me awake at night.

I do understand this, and when my wife and I married after both us being married previously, we have both maintained our own 'spending accounts' in addition to any joint accounts we share. We knew that we didn't want to be tempted, even by just idle curiosity, to 'audit' the other on the other's spending habits.

That said, I am always puzzled when it seems that when needed, I top up the joint accounts, but somehow her spending account has been, well, spent!

 

[Camo]

Which? What? Where?

The "where" seems to be Spain only as reported in the Greek tourist news just now

GTP Article

 

[Robo]

That said, I am always puzzled when it seems that when needed, I top up the joint accounts, but somehow her spending account has been, well, spent!

I thought that was just normal!

 

[dick bird]

Can we keep to the topic? Just for the record, there is no way I am going to discuss my domestic financial arrangements on the forum. I´d put an emoji in there but I hate emojis and I think most of you are sophisticated enough to spot a joke when you see one. Have a good day everyone.

 

[trecile]

I´d put an emoji in there but I hate emojis and I think most of you are sophisticated enough to spot a joke when you see one

I wouldn't be too sure about that!
Oftentimes jokes depends on cultural background, and an emoji can add the necessary tone that's not apparent in text.

 

[Kathor1]

Often times jokes depends on cultural background

Not only jokes about matrimonial arrangements but also the idea of personal data protection and access to personal data.

An anecdote: We once helped a family member with purchasing a first home in the UK. We had to provide information about where the money had come from that we wanted to donate (laws about money laundering). The solicitor who managed the transaction asked us to give them access to our bank accounts. This is apparently common practice and there are apps for it (Thirdfort in this case, if I remember correctly). I nearly fell off my chair. No way would I ever agree to this, and I didn't, and I wondered whether this was even legal in the two jurisdictions where I have a home.

Or councils (local administration/townhall) selling off lists of personal data of the people who live (and vote) there to businesses and companies. Unthinkable elsewhere.

With such differences in cultural background, individual reactions to the new Spanish decree may also be different.

 

[MaxHelado]

With such differences in cultural background, individual reactions to the new Spanish decree may also be different.

“Hecha la ley, hecha la trampa” (“Laws are made to be broken”)
Spanish saying not a recommendation!

 

[Pafayac]

In EU,there is a law called"General Data Protection Regulation" which is intended to protect any European Union citizen from not explicitly allowed usage of its data.

 

[Kathor1]

“Hecha la ley, hecha la trampa” (“Laws are made to be broken”)

Isn't that a mistranslation?

I checked as I don't believe much of what I read on social media , and the Centro Virtual Cervantes has this in their Multilingual Proverbs section:

Quién hizo la ley, hizo la trampa.​

Statement: He who made the law made the trap​

Meaning: It applies to those who seek to evade or break a newly promulgated order and, in general, refer to those who violate the rules that they themselves established.​

​

Now this somehow reminds me of an English word that I had not known before but learnt on this forum. Memorable. It is scofflaws.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

So I don't understand what's really will be different? Just the contact information?

And the establishment will actually keep the CC info? That sounds less secure…

It sounds like a lot of extra time and work, especially at busy places. And I assume someone who was trying to hide wouldn't actually give their real email or phone number anyway. Or their relationships.

 

[MaxHelado]

Isn't that a mistranslation?

No. It's good and captures the meaning pretty well.
You are referencing a different phrase.

 

[Parisian]

YouTube Spain Speaks

 

[henrythedog]

Isn't that a mistranslation?

I checked as I don't believe much of what I read on social media , and the Centro Virtual Cervantes has this in their Multilingual Proverbs section:

Quién hizo la ley, hizo la trampa.​

Statement: He who made the law made the trap​

Meaning: It applies to those who seek to evade or break a newly promulgated order and, in general, refer to those who violate the rules that they themselves established.​

​

Now this somehow reminds me of an English word that I had not known before but learnt on this forum. Memorable. It is scofflaws.

The only time I’ve also ever seen ‘scofflaw’ in use is on this Forum and - unless my paranoia has gone off the scale - it was referring to me! Probably with some justification.

It is very much a US English term, actually (I had to look it up) invented as an entry to a competition in the early 20th century. Prior to looking it up I’d have assumed it was archaic English English.

 

[Tincatinker]

I think there are archaic English versions of the concept of a scofflaw. Plenty in fact. The concept of a law that is extant but can be ignored is intrinsic to English society and has been exported globally.

No-one these days can expect to be prosecuted for allowing a driven or drawn vehicle on the pavements of Winchester. The offence of disorderly conduct in the King’s presence goes unheeded by parliament, as it should. The honest trespasser who “offers no trespass” is still at liberty to roam where they whilt.

There are many names that have been applied to those who choose to live in observance but not necessary obedience to the law: Anarchist; Dissenter; Tinker; Prime Minister; Priest. Scofflaw doesn’t really do it for me. My gran would, having read the offered definition, probably have opined “Toe-rag”; “gutter-snipe”, or “your Uncle Jon…”

Edit: ps. Where are we on the possible introduction of a law requiring all visitors to Spain to provide slightly more personal and sensitive information to accommodation providers than they are currently required to do? Anyone?

 

[Kathor1]

I have a reputation to defend as analyst of grammar of foreign languages and a desire to improve my poor Spanish so I looked up the conjugation of hacer which I usually don't remember: hizo is made in English and hecha is made in English but one is 3rd person preterite and the other is participle (passive voice).

hecha la ley, hecha la trampa is literally the law [is] made, the trap [is] made. Or every law has a loophole. I figured it out all by myself but it's also on Wiktionary for example and elsewhere.

Whether Decree 933/2021 has loopholes to exploit or whether it is broken intentionally, it is actually already law in Spain which isn't always obvious from the current wave of news articles. A number of hotels and other establishments have the software in place and are already collecting the set of data from their guests as required. The decree is not yet mandatory for the whole Spanish hospitality sector because several times an exemption was granted to give people more time to adapt their IT infrastructure and their ways of doing things. The decree will become mandatory on 2 December and as far as I understand it there will be no fines during the next six months or so. The fines for hotels and others covered by this decree range from €100 to €600 in light cases and from €601 to €30,000 in more severe cases. This is a standard tariff - it is not specific to this decree. And only when found out - which does happen. The fine for the hotel in Majorca was initially €30,000 and was then reduced to €15,000.

"Mail Online" has some dramatic sounding articles about this topic - a great read if you find nothing better to amuse yourself or to get enraged.

"Rules are made to be broken" is attributed to WWII American general MacArthur but he is also quoted as "Rules are made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind". Found online and perhaps apocryphal anyway.

 

[Sirage]

Thanks for the explanation - on my next visit to Spain I will enter the country as if nothing has happened as the onus is not on guests other than the usual behaviour of being cordial and well behaved .

On a matter of clarity:

tariff

To me, this word does not flow comfortably in this context. Given your reputation, and my lack of any linguistic, or other, reputation would you also like to analyse and defend its use in that sentence?

 

[henrythedog]

I’m sure I’m not the only one who is astounded by the command of English shown by many on here for whom it is not their first language.

 

[dougfitz]

Thanks for the explanation - on my next visit to Spain I will enter the country as if nothing has happened as the onus is not on guests other than the usual behaviour of being cordial and well behaved .

On a matter of clarity:

tariff

To me, this word does not flow comfortably in this context. Given your reputation, and my lack of any linguistic, or other, reputation would you also like to analyse and defend its use in that sentence?

It's probably fair to say that the most usual meanings of tariff relate to customs taxes or standard lists of charges. Using the word to mean a punishment or fine would be unusual, although I recall the word being used in British police dramas back in my youth in that general sense. This gets support from the Collins dictionary, which lists this meaning:
5. British the level of punishment imposed for a criminal offence

This would give two justifications for the use of tariff in this context:

• the meaning here is simply that the fine is a punishment for failing to comply with the law, or
• the fines imposed are drawn from a table of standard fines - a tariff table - that can be applied across the spectrum of laws, in this case in Spain.

 

[Marbe2]

Credit card AND bank details?!?! OK... I'm somewhat might be agreeable to give the 1st (although suppose I don't have one and paying cash for everything) but definitely NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS regarding the 2nd
Bank details,!?@?

I tend to use one credit card on trips,but have others with me as backups. As soon as I return home, I call my favorite company, check my purchases, and even if all is well, request a new card….too many charges, in too many places, including, supermarkets restaurants, hotels, albergues, transport, etc with no ability to ID from a distance who did what. Now we will add …whomever each place is sending the data to!? Imo better to request a new card when you get home from abroad, and not pay in cash.

 

[Marbe2]

In a little unclear about what exactly the establishment will be collecting regarding CC transactions thattheydon’t already have? They have our names, address, PP numbers Credit Cardnumber and sometimes PIN numbers. What else would they need? I usually book through Booking.com. The charge amount is often payed before even arriving!

 

[Molly Cassidy]

In a little unclear about what exactly the establishment will be collecting regarding CC transactions thattheydon’t already have? They have our names, address, PP numbers Credit Cardnumber and sometimes PIN numbers. What else would they need? I usually book through Booking.com. The charge amount is often payed before even arriving!

I think it is that these details will be held in some official government database rather than used for the purpose of the transaction and then discarded. Where you have paid through a third party, I'm not sure if you will be required to provide details to the accommodation or, more likely I think, Booking.com will be required to provide these details to the Spanish authorities.

 

[Kathor1]

In a little unclear about what exactly the establishment will be collecting regarding CC transactions thattheydon’t already have? They have our names, address, PP numbers Credit Cardnumber and sometimes PIN numbers. What else would they need? I usually book through Booking.com. The charge amount is often payed before even arriving!

What is new with the Spanish decree 933/2021 is the fact that travel agencies will be obliged to transmit personal data of their customers to national Spanish authorities. That is additional work for them, hence their protests. When you booked with Booking.com you agreed to a number of conditions, including this one:

We disclose personal data to law enforcement to the extent that it is required by law or is strictly necessary for the prevention, detection or prosecution of criminal acts and fraud. We may need to further disclose relevant personal data to competent authorities (including tax authorities and municipalities) to comply with a legal obligation (for instance, under short-term rental laws), to protect and defend our rights, or the rights and properties of our business partners.​

​

I noticed that there is also a (still small) number of accommodation offers on Booking.com, mainly villas to rent, whose own booking conditions already include an explicit reference to decree 933/2021.

It is all in the "small print" sections.

 

[WGroleau]

I know that our names and passport details are kept as a means of locating last known position if someone should go missing.

And yet, the Guardía Civi would occasionally call us to ask if Sra. Fulano de Tal had stayed with us. "Un momento, let me log in to your database to look that up."

 

[SabsP]

And yet, the Guardía Civi would occasionally call us to ask if Sra. Fulano de Tal had stayed with us. "Un momento, let me log in to your database to look that up."

Strictly against GDPR rules in Europe with merely calking. Even from police.

 

[peregrina2000]

When a thread starts down a path that leads to more than 10 deletions of offensive and off-topic posts, it’s time to close. Updates will have to be given on a new thread.