The Camino and maybe not quite 'getting it'?

[Robo]

There was a recent thread about EST (Erhard Seminars Training) which I have to say I have never hear of, but it got me thinking.

I undertook some rather 'left field' training about 10 years ago, that may have some lessons for those grappling with their first Camino. It turned out to be the weirdest and most wonderful experience ever........

It's a bit of a story...........sorry. Stay with me......it's relevant, I promise.

A good friend of mine, a business mentor, persuaded me to take part in a 5 day residential singing course!
Can I sing? No. He's a bit of a salesman though!

I recall him saying that this 'wonder coach' would have me singing like Celine Dion and that it would do wonders for my confidence when public speaking. My persuasive friend (David) was also taking part. And there were just 12 places.

Somehow, a few weeks later I found myself with 11 other budding singers, at a retreat in Victoria Australia, next to an Alpaca farm. We were all staying at the retreat, and our 'lessons' took place in a large barn like building. I'll just refer to our coach as Jim.

By the time we got to the 'barn' on day 1, Jim had rearranged everything.

Arm chairs and sofas were arranged in a semi circle facing his piano. And there were blankets draped over all the sofas.

That whole first morning we just listed to Jim, snuggled up on our sofas, as he explained that we all had the ability to sing. It was human nature. But it got stifled out of us as children. After about 2 hours, he had us lying on our back making gurgling baby sounds! Babies are not self conscious he explained! Make baby noises, play with the sounds.........and so we did........

We also learned how singing in most cultures, is how people learn about their culture and history. And in many civilisations, it was how history was passed down. It was a somewhat integral and essential part of human communication it seems......

By the end of the first day, the 'pattern' of each day emerged.

1. Start on the sofas listening to Jim's wisdom.
2. Move to the floor to take part in various exercises such as 'toning' and 'chanting'.
3. Learn about the Four main Archetypes. Sovereign, Warrior, Magician, Lover.
4. Work on a different Archetype each day as a group. Feel its energy, where is lies in our body.
5. Then by lunch time, take the afternoon to write a song about that archetype!
6. By late afternoon, gather back in the barn, and each perform our song for the rest of the group.
7. Whilst identifying the source of the energy within us.......

I would practice my songs, singing to the Alpacas!

OK. Picture this.
I was about 55 years old.
Cannot sing a note to save myself.
An ex soldier of 22 years.
And have the artistic talent and imagination of a Goldfish!

By mid morning on Day 2 I'm calling my business partner..........
"This is the weirdest most BS thing I have come across in my life"!
I'm also feeling stupid because I paid a lot for this retreat!

And, everyone else seems to be right into it!
How gullible are they?

There was an interesting mix of ages and genders on the training.
And during the morning break, I sensed that 'Jane' who was in her late 20s wasn't really getting it either!
We wondered if it was just us, as everyone else was really into it. The chanting, the toning, the 'energy work'
But like me, Jane thought it was total BS.

So we made a 'pact'.

Let's fake it, and see what happens.

Let's just take it all on board.
Let's not try to fathom out exactly what is happening.
Let's just go with the flow.
Let's imagine this stuff works in some way.
Let's give it 100%.............

And so we did.

The next exercise was toning with a partner. So Jane and I teamed up.
We were to sit cross legged facing each other.
Eyes closed.
Very gently holding hands.
And one of us would start 'toning' and the other would just join in when they liked.

One would start, the other follow.
It was rather like whale noises.
A rising and falling tone, drifting back and forth.
We were in perfect harmony.
And somehow we toned in unison, following each others lead.
It was rather like those huge flocks of birds,that all change direction at once.
Just sensing somehow the change in the waves of tones.
Higher, lower, swirling sounds.
It was an incredible experience.

Once over, we were to discuss with our partners what we felt.

We opened our eyes and Jane had tears streaming down her face.
What had she felt?
(Jane sadly had a tough childhood that I won't go into)
But as she sobbed, she explained that she felt like a small child, safe and secure and in the embrace of a loving Father.

That opened the floodgates for me...........and she asked what I had felt.

I said that I felt I had been embracing a small frightened girl to comfort her.

And all the while, we had merely been sitting crossed legged, with our fingers just touching.

We had no idea what had just happened.
But both agreed on the spot, that whatever this was, it was not BS!

The rest of the retreat followed in a similar way.
Changing partners for different exercises.
Writing and singing songs for each other.
Bringing each other to tears with the raw emotion of our songs.
And not being afraid anymore to share our stories with honesty and see how they 'moved' others.

It was one of the most transformative experiences of my life.
And I have done some really left field stuff!

Did I learn to sing?
No not really.
That wasn't the point.
It was all about being able to communicate with a rare and raw openness to an audience, and move them emotionally.
Whether singing, public speaking or whatever.

So how on earth is this relevant to walking a Camino for the first time?

I think that first day at the retreat, might be a bit like some of us feel in the first days of our first Camino.
Not quite sure what to expect.
Not quite sure how we should feel.
Maybe a bit wary of others around us and how they seem to be undertaking their Camino.

And if that happens, maybe we just need to give ourselves to the process?
Trust the process?
Jump right in.
Yes, maybe even fake it till we make it?
Or at least 'actively engage' with our surroundings, or the 'process', whatever that is.......

On my first Camino, I was close to going home a couple of times.
But I gave myself a stern talking to.
Convinced myself to 'stick with the program'.
And within a day or two I was right back in the 'zone'

I sometimes wonder what have have happened, had Jane and I not made that 'pact' on Day 2 of the retreat.
Not only would we have missed an amazing 5 day learning experience.
But one that has certainly changed our lives for the better......

This is the first time I have publicly shared that story.
Being so out of my comfort zone.
But I thought it might have parallels with those struggling to 'get' what the Camino is all about.

 

[Anhalter]

Thanks Robo, once again a wonderful experience you share with us!

While i don't have a similar story to share, i very much remember me in Pamplona, Day 3 of my first Camino thinking something along the lines:

"OK, now everyone made such a fuss about how hard and eye opening this will be. It is not. Why am i doing this. Am i wasting my time here..." and then.. i just went for the "well, while I'm here... lets do this".
Best decision ever.

 

[OSUbuckeye85]

There was a recent thread about EST (Erhard Seminars Training) which I have to say I have never hear of, but it got me thinking.

I undertook some rather 'left field' training about 10 years ago, that may have some lessons for those grappling with their first Camino. It turned out to be the weirdest and most wonderful experience ever........

It's a bit of a story...........sorry. Stay with me......it's relevant, I promise.

A good friend of mine, a business mentor, persuaded me to take part in a 5 day residential singing course!
Can I sing? No. He's a bit of a salesman though!

I recall him saying that this 'wonder coach' would have me singing like Celine Dion and that it would do wonders for my confidence when public speaking. My persuasive friend (David) was also taking part. And there were just 12 places.

Somehow, a few weeks later I found myself with 11 other budding singers, at a retreat in Victoria Australia, next to an Alpaca farm. We were all staying at the retreat, and our 'lessons' took place in a large barn like building. I'll just refer to our coach as Jim.

By the time we got to the 'barn' on day 1, Jim had rearranged everything.

Arm chairs and sofas were arranged in a semi circle facing his piano. And there were blankets draped over all the sofas.

That whole first morning we just listed to Jim, snuggled up on our sofas, as he explained that we all had the ability to sing. It was human nature. But it got stifled out of us as children. After about 2 hours, he had us lying on our back making gurgling baby sounds! Babies are not self conscious he explained! Make baby noises, play with the sounds.........and so we did........

We also learned how singing in most cultures, is how people learn about their culture and history. And in many civilisations, it was how history was passed down. It was a somewhat integral and essential part of human communication it seems......

By the end of the first day, the 'pattern' of each day emerged.

1. Start on the sofas listening to Jim's wisdom.
2. Move to the floor to take part in various exercises such as 'toning' and 'chanting'.
3. Learn about the Four main Archetypes. Sovereign, Warrior, Magician, Lover.
4. Work on a different Archetype each day as a group. Feel its energy, where is lies in our body.
5. Then by lunch time, take the afternoon to write a song about that archetype!
6. By late afternoon, gather back in the barn, and each perform our song for the rest of the group.
7. Whilst identifying the source of the energy within us.......

I would practice my songs, singing to the Alpacas!

OK. Picture this.
I was about 55 years old.
Cannot sing a note to save myself.
An ex soldier of 22 years.
And have the artistic talent and imagination of a Goldfish!

By mid morning on Day 2 I'm calling my business partner..........
"This is the weirdest most BS thing I have come across in my life"!
I'm also feeling stupid because I paid a lot for this retreat!

And, everyone else seems to be right into it!
How gullible are they?

There was an interesting mix of ages and genders on the training.
And during the morning break, I sensed that 'Jane' who was in her late 20s wasn't really getting it either!
We wondered if it was just us, as everyone else was really into it. The chanting, the toning, the 'energy work'
But like me, Jane thought it was total BS.

So we made a 'pact'.

Let's fake it, and see what happens.

Let's just take it all on board.
Let's not try to fathom out exactly what is happening.
Let's just go with the flow.
Let's imagine this stuff works in some way.
Let's give it 100%.............

And so we did.

The next exercise was toning with a partner. So Jane and I teamed up.
We were to sit cross legged facing each other.
Eyes closed.
Very gently holding hands.
And one of us would start 'toning' and the other would just join in when they liked.

One would start, the other follow.
It was rather like whale noises.
A rising and falling tone, drifting back and forth.
We were in perfect harmony.
And somehow we toned in unison, following each others lead.
It was rather like those huge flocks of birds,that all change direction at once.
Just sensing somehow the change in the waves of tones.
Higher, lower, swirling sounds.
It was an incredible experience.

Once over, we were to discuss with our partners what we felt.

We opened our eyes and Jane had tears streaming down her face.
What had she felt?
(Jane sadly had a tough childhood that I won't go into)
But as she sobbed, she explained that she felt like a small child, safe and secure and in the embrace of a loving Father.

That opened the floodgates for me...........and she asked what I had felt.

I said that I felt I had been embracing a small frightened girl to comfort her.

And all the while, we had merely been sitting crossed legged, with our fingers just touching.

We had no idea what had just happened.
But both agreed on the spot, that whatever this was, it was not BS!

The rest of the retreat followed in a similar way.
Changing partners for different exercises.
Writing and singing songs for each other.
Bringing each other to tears with the raw emotion of our songs.
And not being afraid anymore to share our stories with honesty and see how they 'moved' others.

It was one of the most transformative experiences of my life.
And I have done some really left field stuff!

Did I learn to sing?
No not really.
That wasn't the point.
It was all about being able to communicate with a rare and raw openness to an audience, and move them emotionally.
Whether singing, public speaking or whatever.

So how on earth is this relevant to walking a Camino for the first time?

I think that first day at the retreat, might be a bit like some of us feel in the first days of our first Camino.
Not quite sure what to expect.
Not quite sure how we should feel.
Maybe a bit wary of others around us and how they seem to be undertaking their Camino.

And if that happens, maybe we just need to give ourselves to the process?
Trust the process?
Jump right in.
Yes, maybe even fake it till we make it?
Or at least 'actively engage' with our surroundings, or the 'process', whatever that is.......

On my first Camino, I was close to going home a couple of times.
But I gave myself a stern talking to.
Convinced myself to 'stick with the program'.
And within a day or two I was right back in the 'zone'

I sometimes wonder what have have happened, had Jane and I not made that 'pact' on Day 2 of the retreat.
Not only would we have missed an amazing 5 day learning experience.
But one that has certainly changed our lives for the better......

This is the first time I have publicly shared that story.
Being so out of my comfort zone.
But I thought it might have parallels with those struggling to 'get' what the Camino is all about.

Thank you for sharing. I am looking forward to my first Camino in April 2025, and these would be helpful.

 

[IngridF]

Wow, you are such a gifted story teller. Loved it, thank you for sharing.

 

[RRat]

There was a recent thread about EST (Erhard Seminars Training) which I have to say I have never hear of, but it got me thinking.

I undertook some rather 'left field' training about 10 years ago, that may have some lessons for those grappling with their first Camino. It turned out to be the weirdest and most wonderful experience ever........

It's a bit of a story...........sorry. Stay with me......it's relevant, I promise.

A good friend of mine, a business mentor, persuaded me to take part in a 5 day residential singing course!
Can I sing? No. He's a bit of a salesman though!

I recall him saying that this 'wonder coach' would have me singing like Celine Dion and that it would do wonders for my confidence when public speaking. My persuasive friend (David) was also taking part. And there were just 12 places.

Somehow, a few weeks later I found myself with 11 other budding singers, at a retreat in Victoria Australia, next to an Alpaca farm. We were all staying at the retreat, and our 'lessons' took place in a large barn like building. I'll just refer to our coach as Jim.

By the time we got to the 'barn' on day 1, Jim had rearranged everything.

Arm chairs and sofas were arranged in a semi circle facing his piano. And there were blankets draped over all the sofas.

That whole first morning we just listed to Jim, snuggled up on our sofas, as he explained that we all had the ability to sing. It was human nature. But it got stifled out of us as children. After about 2 hours, he had us lying on our back making gurgling baby sounds! Babies are not self conscious he explained! Make baby noises, play with the sounds.........and so we did........

We also learned how singing in most cultures, is how people learn about their culture and history. And in many civilisations, it was how history was passed down. It was a somewhat integral and essential part of human communication it seems......

By the end of the first day, the 'pattern' of each day emerged.

1. Start on the sofas listening to Jim's wisdom.
2. Move to the floor to take part in various exercises such as 'toning' and 'chanting'.
3. Learn about the Four main Archetypes. Sovereign, Warrior, Magician, Lover.
4. Work on a different Archetype each day as a group. Feel its energy, where is lies in our body.
5. Then by lunch time, take the afternoon to write a song about that archetype!
6. By late afternoon, gather back in the barn, and each perform our song for the rest of the group.
7. Whilst identifying the source of the energy within us.......

I would practice my songs, singing to the Alpacas!

OK. Picture this.
I was about 55 years old.
Cannot sing a note to save myself.
An ex soldier of 22 years.
And have the artistic talent and imagination of a Goldfish!

By mid morning on Day 2 I'm calling my business partner..........
"This is the weirdest most BS thing I have come across in my life"!
I'm also feeling stupid because I paid a lot for this retreat!

And, everyone else seems to be right into it!
How gullible are they?

There was an interesting mix of ages and genders on the training.
And during the morning break, I sensed that 'Jane' who was in her late 20s wasn't really getting it either!
We wondered if it was just us, as everyone else was really into it. The chanting, the toning, the 'energy work'
But like me, Jane thought it was total BS.

So we made a 'pact'.

Let's fake it, and see what happens.

Let's just take it all on board.
Let's not try to fathom out exactly what is happening.
Let's just go with the flow.
Let's imagine this stuff works in some way.
Let's give it 100%.............

And so we did.

The next exercise was toning with a partner. So Jane and I teamed up.
We were to sit cross legged facing each other.
Eyes closed.
Very gently holding hands.
And one of us would start 'toning' and the other would just join in when they liked.

One would start, the other follow.
It was rather like whale noises.
A rising and falling tone, drifting back and forth.
We were in perfect harmony.
And somehow we toned in unison, following each others lead.
It was rather like those huge flocks of birds,that all change direction at once.
Just sensing somehow the change in the waves of tones.
Higher, lower, swirling sounds.
It was an incredible experience.

Once over, we were to discuss with our partners what we felt.

We opened our eyes and Jane had tears streaming down her face.
What had she felt?
(Jane sadly had a tough childhood that I won't go into)
But as she sobbed, she explained that she felt like a small child, safe and secure and in the embrace of a loving Father.

That opened the floodgates for me...........and she asked what I had felt.

I said that I felt I had been embracing a small frightened girl to comfort her.

And all the while, we had merely been sitting crossed legged, with our fingers just touching.

We had no idea what had just happened.
But both agreed on the spot, that whatever this was, it was not BS!

The rest of the retreat followed in a similar way.
Changing partners for different exercises.
Writing and singing songs for each other.
Bringing each other to tears with the raw emotion of our songs.
And not being afraid anymore to share our stories with honesty and see how they 'moved' others.

It was one of the most transformative experiences of my life.
And I have done some really left field stuff!

Did I learn to sing?
No not really.
That wasn't the point.
It was all about being able to communicate with a rare and raw openness to an audience, and move them emotionally.
Whether singing, public speaking or whatever.

So how on earth is this relevant to walking a Camino for the first time?

I think that first day at the retreat, might be a bit like some of us feel in the first days of our first Camino.
Not quite sure what to expect.
Not quite sure how we should feel.
Maybe a bit wary of others around us and how they seem to be undertaking their Camino.

And if that happens, maybe we just need to give ourselves to the process?
Trust the process?
Jump right in.
Yes, maybe even fake it till we make it?
Or at least 'actively engage' with our surroundings, or the 'process', whatever that is.......

On my first Camino, I was close to going home a couple of times.
But I gave myself a stern talking to.
Convinced myself to 'stick with the program'.
And within a day or two I was right back in the 'zone'

I sometimes wonder what have have happened, had Jane and I not made that 'pact' on Day 2 of the retreat.
Not only would we have missed an amazing 5 day learning experience.
But one that has certainly changed our lives for the better......

This is the first time I have publicly shared that story.
Being so out of my comfort zone.
But I thought it might have parallels with those struggling to 'get' what the Camino is all about.

I scrolled and didn't read a thing.

 

[Kirkie]

I scrolled and didn't read a thing.

I read it all, and enjoyed it. I didn't have time to comment. @Robo, please note that I too appreciate your contributions to the forum.
Now, @RRat, I am curious. Why did you write your comment? Or was it a misspelling?

 

[Wicked]

Well, that brought me to tears!

 

[GaryRobArms]

Yes, I agree that your singing retreat experience is similar to the experience of being on a Camino. At least, it is for me; Maybe not for others.

Specifically for me. I don't naturally buy into much of the Camino mythology that is so well represented in this forum. For example, I don't much enjoy the alberque experience, compared to having a quiet room to myself and my own bathroom. And I think a pilgrimage is an internal process that doesn't necessarily need to terminate at a particular cathedral. But when I do a Camino it definitely helps to choose to believe those things are important; To buy into "the program", as you say. Fake it until you can make it.

More generally, there is a lot of discussion around these days about meaning: how do we choose what has meaning for us; how dismal a life without meaning can be; what happens when people ascribe meaning to things that actually are detrimental to themselves. I believe you are touching on the importance of realizing that each of us has the ability to ascribe meaning to something, and the act of ascribing meaning to something not only makes the thing interesting, but can also be the key to making it effective.

 

[Charles Ross]

I think the closest tie-in between EST, Robo's singing course and the Camino is the oft heard admonition for pilgrims to 'Expect nothing, take what comes and be grateful for it'.
An extended walk is much more than '15 Minute Chair Yoga for beginners with a busy schedule' (The advertising banner at the top of my page. (I really have to re-subscribe!)) the Camino is more of a 'Multi Week Wandering for beginners who have no particular place to be'.
My getting 'IT' would blink on and off on my two French Caminos, never experienced on the Portuguese (broken bones, etc.) One 'on' occurred when we reached Granon after a wet, muddy day, could not find any place to sleep and stumbled across this church; grab a mat, sleep on the linoleum tiled floor. No F-ing way! We were just about to walk out when someone suggested we take a look at something. He led us through a portal to the choir loft of the church. It was really something to see and I was overcome by this feeling of 'this is exactly where I want to be'.
I still think the magic doesn't really come out of some mystical revelation but out of simple physical, emotional exhaustion.
San Francisco Palace Hotel, 1976: monies gone, weekend wasted, I give up.
Granon, Spain, 2022. I'm tired, frustrated, I give up.
I don't really remember the day before or the day after but I remember that church.

 

[AllisonMarie]

Thank you for sharing. I am looking forward to my first Camino in April 2025, and these would be helpful.

Hey buckeye! I’m walking in April too, my second Camino, maybe I’ll see you there.

 

[Juspassinthru]

I was told before my first Camino that the Camino will make you laugh for no (known) reason and it will make you cry for the same. It did and I did. Only later did I realize that I knew the reasons.

To me, my experience is in line with @Robo and his experiences. A story well told and a lesson to be learned, if we choose to.

 

[Robo]

I was told before my first Camino that the Camino will make you laugh for no (known) reason and it will make you cry for the same. It did and I did. Only later did I realize that I knew the reasons.

Nicely put.
The Camino can touch us so deeply........if we allow it to.

 

[Camo]

It's the other way around for me ie the world is a huge place full of wonderful places to go but one's resources and time need to be balanced against "earning a living" etc - ie I don't need any motivation to get out there and experience all that.

So the Camino thing has been a mystery to me ie why would a person need to be "talked in" to doing something so strenuous and time sapping, especially when nobody seems to be able to explain the "end product" - like in The Way where the ending left me up in the air.

BUT I really got into Hectors daily reports of his trials and tribulations and HOPES that this "thing" would happen to him. All went great for 5 weeks and I really was expecting to find the answer to my quandary but alas Hector ended up as a "depressed mess" and cut off all communication

 

[Robo]

(1) It's the other way around for me ie the world is a huge place full of wonderful places to go but one's resources and time need to be balanced against "earning a living" etc - ie I don't need any motivation to get out there and experience all that.

(2) So the Camino thing has been a mystery to me ie why would a person need to be "talked in" to doing something so strenuous and time sapping, especially when nobody seems to be able to explain the "end product" - like in The Way where the ending left me up in the air.

(3) BUT I really got into XXX's daily reports of his trials and tribulations and HOPES that this "thing" would happen to him. All went great for 5 weeks and I really was expecting to find the answer to my quandary but alas Hector ended up as a "depressed mess" and cut off all communication

(1) Indeed, some of us don't need any motivation at all.
I launched into my first one 'full on'.
And then struggled at times to make any meaning out of it.

I think many of us share the balancing act of time off, travel expense, and trying to earn a living.
If I'm lucky, I get to walk a Camino every 3 years or so because of that balancing act.
I'd love to be retired and walking a Camino every year.
But that's unlikely to ever happen for me.
I can live with that.

(2) I think the Camino remains a mystery to many of us. How does it work it's magic? How do we tap into it? Will it happen at all? I suppose my story was aimed at those who might struggle to find 'it' on Camino. Whatever 'it' might be for them. Sometimes when we are far out of our comfort zone, and have nothing to cling to, we might look for what seems the easiest way out.

(3) I'm sure we all hope that XXX is well and remains so. He endured a lot.

I hope one day that you get to take that first step on your first Camino.
As a smile breaks out and you start to get an inkling of just what this might all be about.
Have faith. Have no expectations. Take that step.

 

[MARSKA]

Many minutes, hours, days I did not "get it". Yet I want to walk again.

 

[Camo]

(3) I'm sure we all hope that Hector is well and remains so. He endured a lot.

But that is the point, he had already endured a lot and gave us some inklings about the details but remained silent when I asked him about his decision to try a Camino (eg instead of a Cruise etc) and what he was expecting (if anything) or simply having faith that "it" would happen??

So he endured a lot MORE, I am none the wiser and he is now (in his words) trying to recover from his Camino disappointment as well as the original demons.

But he DID add to that magic figure of 500,000 compostelas and at the end of the day it seems that is main consideration.

 

[Robo]

But that is the point, he had already endured a lot and gave us some inklings about the details but remained silent when I asked him about his decision to try a Camino (eg instead of a Cruise etc) and what he was expecting (if anything) or simply having faith that "it" would happen??

So he endured a lot MORE, I am none the wiser and he is now (in his words) trying to recover from his Camino disappointment as well as the original demons.

But he DID add to that magic figure of 500,000 compostelas and at the end of the day it seems that is main consideration.

I'm not sure I really understand your point, sorry.
XXX had a tough time, for many reasons it seems.
And we wish him well.
I certainly don't expect him to 'explain' any further or what he is going through now.
It's obviously a deeply personal matter.
As for him 'making up the numbers' I think that is rather flippant.
Who cares about the stats?

People walk Caminos for many reasons.
Sometimes those we meet share very personal stories.
Sometimes they don't.
But regardless, we need to appreciate that we are all different, dealing with different issues, demons, challenges......
Sometimes people share those here. And we can try to help them and learn from their experiences.
But those are the experiences of others.
And they may not turn out to be our own experiences.

Tragically someone drowned fishing near my home on Saturday.
We may never know the full circumstances.
But there were still plenty of people fishing on Sunday.

I'm sorry if I'm missing your point.
I'm genuinely trying to understand it.
I confess I'm not the sharpest tool in the set.

 

[C clearly]

But he DID add to that magic figure of 500,000 compostelas and at the end of the day it seems that is main consideration.

This statement makes no sense. There is no reason at all to suppose that is the main consideration.

I am none the wiser

Apparently not. See my comment above.

It is none of our business to know more about a forum member who has chosen to take time away from the forum, so let's respect his decision and not drag him into the conversation.

 

[Flog]

BUT I really got into xxxx daily reports of his trials and tribulations and HOPES that this "thing" would happen to him. All went great for 5 weeks and I really was expecting to find the answer to my quandary but alas xxxx ended up as a "depressed mess" and cut off all communication

A bit harsh, especially coming from one who, if I understand correctly, has never set foot on a camino. And who are you to pass judgement on someone who has bared their soul to everyone on here?

People choose to come and go on the forum, it's absolutely their right and it's absolutely their own business.

 

[Flog]

But he DID add to that magic figure of 500,000 compostelas and at the end of the day it seems that is main consideration.

What???

 

[Camo]

has never set foot on a camino.

see Rule 3 buddy

3) No arguments about who is a tourist and who is a “real" pilgrim. The forum is intended for all who are interested in the Camino. Please do not challenge the sincerity, intentions, or authenticity of another person’s Camino.

 

[Camo]

I'm sorry if I'm missing your point.
I'm genuinely trying to understand it.
I confess I'm not the sharpest tool in the set.

And I am genuinely interested in your chosen topic

I will explain shortly once the commotion dies down

 

[Kathor1]

@Camo: The only decent thing that you can do: edit your comments and delete any reference to the forum member who does not participate in this thread and in other recent threads and who has not logged into the forum since October. You cannot walk on a Camino in Spain and you never have. You try to experience it through what others write and reveal about their own and very personal and individual experience. Read it. Don't interpret it, especially when it is about their feelings. You have no right to publicly describe another person who you have never met in real life as a "depressed mess".

 

[Juspassinthru]

(1) Indeed, some of us don't need any motivation at all.
I launched into my first one 'full on'.
And then struggled at times to make any meaning out of it.

I think many of us share the balancing act of time off, travel expense, and trying to earn a living.
If I'm lucky, I get to walk a Camino every 3 years or so because of that balancing act.
I'd love to be retired and walking a Camino every year.
But that's unlikely to ever happen for me.
I can live with that.

(2) I think the Camino remains a mystery to many of us. How does it work it's magic? How do we tap into it? Will it happen at all? I suppose my story was aimed at those who might struggle to find 'it' on Camino. Whatever 'it' might be for them. Sometimes when we are far out of our comfort zone, and have nothing to cling to, we might look for what seems the easiest way out.

(3) I'm sure we all hope that XXX is well and remains so. He endured a lot.

I hope one day that you get to take that first step on your first Camino.
As a smile breaks out and you start to get an inkling of just what this might all be about.
Have faith. Have no expectations. Take that step.

@Robo, I did not go looking for “it”, in my very specific case, I didn’t know there was an “it”. Yet, I found it anyway. Unexpected gifts at unexpected times. If you go searching you may be disappointed. If you go with no expectations and with an open heart and mind, you may be wonderfully surprised, or not. There are no guarantees in life.

Interesting conversation you’ve started @Robo.

 

[Camo]

An ex soldier of 22 years.

Ok the noise has died down a bit so back to your question about getting it.

I think it was Trecile that told me you don't HAVE to have an issue (like Bill in movie) to get some joy from a Camino, although it seems to me most walkers do have some issues they hope will be fixed via the Camino.

So I am wondering how you see 22 years in army (as a regular I figure?) interfaces (or not) with your love of Caminos and actually "getting it"?

 

[trecile]

I think it was Trecile that told me you don't HAVE to have an issue (like Bill in movie) to get some joy from a Camino, although it seems to me most walkers do have some issues they hope will be fixed via the Camino

I may have said that, because it's true, and very few pilgrims that I know walk the Camino because they are looking to fix anything. In fact, I can only think of one peregrina that walked the Camino with the specific intention of changing/fixing her life.

 

[C clearly]

you don't HAVE to have an issue (like Bill in movie) to get some joy from a Camino, although it seems to me most walkers do have some issues they hope will be fixed via the Camino

First, you are linking "issues" and "joy" in an odd way. People with or without issues can certainly get joy from a Camino, whether or not the issue is fixed.

Your comment about "most walkers do have some issues they hope will be fixed via the Camino" is simply wrong. Maybe people who create books and movies about their Camino add a touch of drama. And let's face it, everyone has some issues. Your impression seems to be mainly derived from movies and a few threads that captured your fancy. Have you met any people who have walked the Camino?

 

[Robo]

Ok the noise has died down a bit so back to your question about getting it.

I think it was Trecile that told me you don't HAVE to have an issue (like Bill in movie) to get some joy from a Camino, although it seems to me most walkers do have some issues they hope will be fixed via the Camino.

So I am wondering how you see 22 years in army (as a regular I figure?) interfaces (or not) with your love of Caminos and actually "getting it"?

Ah OK.

The Army bit was not related to the Camino directly, but to the story.

I merely mentioned my 22 years in the Army, to illustrate that I had led a life of discipline and perhaps to a degree a lack of sensitivity to feelings. My own or others. I was this 'deal with the facts' type of guy. Follow the rules. No way on earth was I a touchy feely kind of guy!

Suddenly on that singing course I was totally out of my depth. Certainly way out of my comfort zone. I was being asked to try and experience things that initially I could not even comprehend. To the extent that I thought it was all total BS.

It was only when I 'decided' not to fight or question the process, or try to over analyse it, that I allowed that emotion and energy 'inside'.

I merely shared the story as I thought it might have parallels for those who perhaps struggle with the idea, or underlying meaning and value of walking a Camino. Whatever that might be! It's probably different for all of us. So the simple message of the story was, maybe don't fight it, or overthink it.........just go with it, try it, see what happens.

To the first point. No, I don't believe we have to have an 'issue' to enjoy the Camino. But I believe for many, we might be seeking answers, peace, forgiveness and a whole range of other things.

In my own case, I was seeking an answer. But I realised within the first week I didn't even know the question! But just by letting go, and letting the Camino 'happen' without any expectations, by enjoying the peace and solitude, the thinking time, I was lucky to at first realise what question I might want to answer, and then at about 3 weeks, the answer came to me.

I hope that helps.

I'm not sure any of us have the answers to this whole Camino thing. We are just sharing personal experiences. Everyone's mileage will vary. I found prior to my first Camno it was interesting to read.

Added note.

I would agree that the joy and fixing issues are not related. as per @C clearly above.
And I think I'm beyond fixing issues on Camino now. I'm content.
I walk them for the pure joy.

But I feel a 'need' for them.
I lead a busy and stressful life. And would love to be retired.
But that's not an option for me for a while yet.

So my Caminos are my 'therapy' if you like.
I can unplug, relax and let my mind wander for a few weeks.
For me it's like a 'cleansing' process, of the mind and body.
I love it. It's my happy place.

Whilst all of this is an interesting discussion, I would caution that it's far too easy to overthink all this stuff.

The Camino for me at least is simple.
Get away from your normal day to day.
Fresh air, exercise, socialise with some really great people.
Walk, eat, sleep, repeat.
And maybe feel more in touch with nature, your God, yourself.......

 

[Camo]

Get away from your normal day to day.
Fresh air, exercise, socialise with some really great people.
Walk, eat, sleep, repeat.

Thanks again for your thoughts but do you realise you have NOT reported (in plain words) the DEFINITION of "it".

In other words I would start at the other end and say OK you have told me of YOUR it and how you got it by Camino, SO I would then consider if I liked your it and then make an assessment if I thought I might be able to get one too OR spend my time/money on my OWN it.

Can you see my logical thought process (as an engineer)?

This all leads inexorably to what IS my it and (unfortunately) the lousy army. My first visit to Thredbo was in summer 1965 staying 2 nights at the Sydney University "aulberge" and gazing up Crackenback 1,000 ft above - that was it and I intended to give away my career as a junior tennis star and become a ski instructor in Europe. But in 1965 we also had the "lottery of death" and I either went to Vietnam or spent 2 years in jail - all of this BEFORE I was able to vote.

The long and short is I survived Vietnam and realized my ski dream with my 1976 Ski Safari (which included the Sierra Nevadas in Spain).

BUT 60 years later I still suffer badly from the trauma of war and indignation of being told I was too young to vote but old enough to die (and several of my mates did) coupled with no "compostela" and being called a "baby killer".

OK a Camino does not have Charley shooting at you while carrying a rifle and full pack but the prospect of going on a long walk and staying in shared accommodation with smelly soldiers is the absolute WORST thing I could think of and to be avoided at all costs.

On the other hand one of my many hobbies is making Web-Apps of walking trails (which lately has included a few Caminos) but not walking one, as I see no point at all.

I was hoping beyond all hope that following Hector in detail day after day might just reveal that special it at the end and was devastated when he announced it had been a mistake so that took me back to your OP question of "what's it all about Alfie"? and explains why I was asking about your army/Camino relationship (or none)

 

[Robo]

Thanks again for your thoughts but do you realise you have NOT reported (in plain words) the DEFINITION of "it".

OK, I get it. I think.
And I'm sorry to disappoint you.
I have no definition for 'it' and it's a very personal thing anyway.

This is starting to feel like an interrogation of my personal thoughts, perspectives and beliefs.
Which I'm sure is not your intention.

But I don't have the answers for you. I just don't.
Sorry.

Like that old Queensland Tourism Advert used to say.
"If you never ever go, you'll never never know"

And trying to persuade someone to go, or to at least understand the Camino, who sees no point in going, would be a rather fruitless effort on my part I think. If there is no 'calling' why go?

I would suggest watching a few Movies.

The Way. That got me onto my first Camino.
The Way My Way. also good.

And this one I loved. Maybe start with this.

 

[trecile]

On the other hand one of my many hobbies is making Web-Apps of walking trails (which lately has included a few Caminos) but not walking one, as I see no point at all.

And I see no point in making Web-Apps of walking trails that I'll never get to experience. But apparently it gives you joy. I get my joy by walking the Camino. Others get it by creating art and music, spending time with their families, and a myriad of other things.

 

[chinacat]

I think some of the above has gone over my head …
Well done, you brave few who are attempting to provide answers ..

Interesting posts, @Robo

 

[Flog]

Great posts Robo, thanks! You summed it up well.

 

[Camo]

But I don't have the answers for you. I just don't.
Sorry.

That's fine Robo (or maybe I am meant to say at Robo) but you gave the answer to the other question that continues to interest me ie what INSPIRED you to do Camino and you said movies (3 of em).

I was a bit surprised though that you did not nominate your it (or one of them) as the Compostela which seems to me to be the ONLY it for most of the reported 500,000 who did what was needed to get one.

 

[Robo]

That's fine Robo (or maybe I am meant to say at Robo) but you gave the answer to the other question that continues to interest me ie what INSPIRED you to do Camino and you said movies (3 of em).

I was a bit surprised though that you did not nominate your it (or one of them) as the Compostela which seems to me to be the ONLY it for most of the reported 500,000 who did what was needed to get one.

Don't be surprised.

For most people I think, the Camino is about the journey, the experience and all that it might entail for them.

The joys, the hardships, the friendships, the self discovery, the overcoming of self doubt, the unburdening, the self forgiveness and a 101 other things that may or may not be relevant to each individual.

For many I believe, the Compostela is merely a piece of paper. A nice 'memento' of the journey.
Many don't even collect a Compostela.

It really is about the journey and not the destination. In fact many feel a sense of anti climax and 'let down' on completion. I certainly do. So last year I kept on walking, to the Ocean, to unwind and process.

If I might offer a word of advice.

Try not to read too much into what you read. Take it at face value. Try not to correlate things that may not even logically correlate.

For example, we might reach close to 500,000 Compostelas this year. That's true.
But how can you draw the conclusion, that for almost 500,000 people, obtaining the Compostela was a primary purpose of their Camino? That's just like adding 2 + 2 and getting 5.

Please do watch "To the end of the World" in the link above.
It's only 35 minutes.
Not only is it a lovely story, beautifully shot and narrated, but I think it captures some key elements of the Camino that many of us have experienced. The closing scene makes me tear up still!

Do report back and tell me what you thought of it......
It might just help to answer some of your questions..........

 

[Camo]

Many don't even collect a Compostela.

Do you have a ballpark figure on just how many - like is it closer to 10% or 50% and yes I will watch the movie - did you watch The Surgeon and the Saint on Utube, it was the first I knew of a Camino and it really had me asking questions about the doctor (as did his sons)

 

[Robo]

Do you have a ballpark figure on just how many - like is it closer to 10% or 50% and yes I will watch the movie - did you watch The Surgeon and the Saint on Utube, it was the first I knew of a Camino and it really had me asking questions about the doctor (as did his sons)

I don't think anyone knows............or really cares.

No more answers from me till you watch the video.
I suspect much of what you seek is in there.

 

[Camo]

No more answers from me till you watch the video.

Kinda like Romeo and Juliette with poles. As for The Way I am not allowed to discuss it in this forum but did you get the message Emilio was putting out there?

HINT it was NOT at the sea at the end - Thank You

 

[Robo]

I loved the quote from the Nun at the end.

Oh, I watched the Surgeon and the Saint too.

 

[Camo]

I loved the quote from the Nun at the end.

Oh, I watched the Surgeon and the Saint too.

Yeah that Nun was a real sweatie

And I was amazed at how the surgeon converted his Camino into a mathematical exercise to eek out at all costs that 100 kms

I think the point is why did he do no planning and simply start at Sarria as most do who are Compostela Obsessed and skip all those train and bus diversions on the hop??

 

[Robo]

Yeah that Nun was a real sweetie

And I was amazed at how the surgeon converted his Camino into a mathematical exercise to eek out at all costs that 100 kms

I think the point is why did he do no planning and simply start at Sarria as most do who are Compostela Obsessed and skip all those train and bus diversions on the hop??

I wondered that at first.
There seemed to be very little planning, and the gear was not the best.
He was also very optimistic about his abilities! 20 miles a day........

But......

I think this might have taken place 12-15 years ago?
(AfterNote, it looks like it came out in 2012)
So we need to appreciate that much of the planning resources we have now, were in their infancy.
Though it all seemed a bit 'spur of the moment'.......

He was certainly very single minded in his goal though.
And adjusting it, realistically, as he went.
And it paid off!

I'm not sure he was Compostela obsessed though.
He set out wanting to walk the whole thing. With a real purpose in mind.
Then as some Pilgrims find, it was more than he could handle.
So without giving away his overall purpose and 'mission', for those who have not watched it, he reduced his expectations so that he could achieve a reduced goal at least.

And if we believe in these things..........I'm sure the Almighty recognised his efforts, even though the goal was reduced. To a degree it's not how far we walk, but how we walk it, in terms of intentions.

 

[Camo]

(AfterNote, it looks like it came out in 2012)
So we need to appreciate that much of the planning resources we have now, were in their infancy.

Yes they were but 2012 was also The Way so one needs to assess resources in that vein. And in my book (which I am not allowed to talk about here) the plot re Daniel's death shows him carefully studying a guide (we don't know which) and heading off in wrong direction.

But for sure he had a purpose and if it DID help young Ian then I am happy to accept a miracle happened.

 

[Charles Ross]

RE: 'Getting It'.. I'm the guy who originally posted about the 'IT' and I should clarify a couple of things. 'IT' really has nothing to do with 'spirituality', 'companionship', 'getting from point A to point B' or 'Fix me Jesus'. In this regard, the Camino serves only as a mechanism, It's a kind of trap that holds you in a place where you are submitted to physical/mental/emotional exhaustion. How often is one in such a place in the course of their lives? I've been physically tired, mentally drained and/or emotionally exhausted, individually or a combination of, but rarely FORCED into a circumstance that produces it (or 'IT'). An extended Camino does trap you. You've spent time and money to get there, most places on the Camino are in the perceived middle of nowhere, you can't turn around and go back, getting 'out of it' is some unknown distance forward. That stupid EST seminar produced it; the Camino also has produced IT at times.
What is 'IT' for me? It is a non-intellectual understanding of where/who I am and my total responsibility for being where/who I am. A lot of stuff drains away, disappears for a brief period of time.
I'm going back on a Camino. For this American it's going to be a way to spend a substantial amount of time in Spain, it's inexpensive, I like the randomness of the experience, meeting variety of people, having a 'fun vacay'. I'm not going back to get 'IT', but if it happens I will accept it.
Also I'm going to try real hard not to fall down.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

RE: 'Getting It'.. I'm the guy who originally posted about the 'IT' and I should clarify a couple of things. 'IT' really has nothing to do with 'spirituality', 'companionship', 'getting from point A to point B' or 'Fix me Jesus'. In this regard, the Camino serves only as a mechanism, It's a kind of trap that holds you in a place where you are submitted to physical/mental/emotional exhaustion. How often is one in such a place in the course of their lives? I've been physically tired, mentally drained and/or emotionally exhausted, individually or a combination of, but rarely FORCED into a circumstance that produces it (or 'IT'). An extended Camino does trap you. You've spent time and money to get there, most places on the Camino are in the perceived middle of nowhere, you can't turn around and go back, getting 'out of it' is some unknown distance forward. That stupid EST seminar produced it; the Camino also has produced IT at times.
What is 'IT' for me? It is a non-intellectual understanding of where/who I am and my total responsibility for being where/who I am. A lot of stuff drains away, disappears for a brief period of time.
I'm going back on a Camino. For this American it's going to be a way to spend a substantial amount of time in Spain, it's inexpensive, I like the randomness of the experience, meeting variety of people, having a 'fun vacay'. I'm not going back to get 'IT', but if it happens I will accept it.
Also I'm going to try real hard not to fall down.

Your post touches on a question that occurred to me on my last set of walks, spent for 3.5 weeks on different points on the Frances. As I watched several dozen first-time walkers suffering the entirely new-to-them exhaustion that comes from the combination of very unusual and very persistent over-exertion with a lack of sleep for days on end, and many proclaiming themselves to be locating a new sense of "the spiritual" I had a sudden appreciation of how cults work... Defamiliarization, removed from friends and family, perhaps isolated, exhausted (physically and mentally)... one can become open to (or vulnerable to) a whole world of ideas.
To the extend that there is no *guru* running the various camino routes, I don't think there is anything nefarious going on (so, not like a cult)... but the spiritual epiphanies that cannot be maintained once back in the day-to-day...? Maybe that's partly because in our day-to-day worlds we might suffer from burnout, or a persistent sense of anomie, but we aren't deprived of the material states required for logic and reason....
And I say this as one who returned to Catholicism somewhere along the way... so I "get it" but I spent a loooooooong time thinking about whether I wanted to do that in my day-to-day grind of not being very chill because I was very wary of acting on any perceptions made/experienced while I too was suffering a lack or sleep, the absence of a centre, and the physical exhaustion of persistent over-training.
In my day-to-day Catholicism, being a highly imperfect being is "OK"... and I try to hold that with me when I am on a camino and feel the pressure to become "newly enlightened and mindfully perfect"... So... that's very against the current of the contemporary 'new agey' kind of take I think...
YMMV as might anyone's of course. But your post brought all this to mind.

 

[Camo]

or a persistent sense of anomie

That is my new word for the day - I think I will be able to use - THANK YOU

 

[Camo]

a sudden appreciation of how cults work... Defamiliarization, removed from friends and family, perhaps isolated, exhausted (physically and mentally)... one can become open to (or vulnerable to) a whole world of ideas.

You are correct but not just cults it is how the army has worked since first reported by Homer for Trojan Wars, and this was explained in detail to me at Boot Camp in 1965 by an army psychiatrist when I tried to "pull a hammie" to get discharged.

He explained that all the walking and marching and pushups and seemingly useless drills was how the army had always worked so nobody was about to change it.

But you are referring to the OTHER version where a person subjects themself to this WILLINGLY and there is a word for that which escapes me at present but was used by Emilio in The Way (which I'm not allowed to talk about anyway).

But then you may ask why I am IN this forum willingly subjecting myself to abuse from Mods and Minders and I have to say dunno - why do we do anything in this life?

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

You are correct but not just cults it is how the army has worked since first reported by Homer for Trojan Wars, and this was explained in detail to me at Boot Camp in 1965 by an army psychiatrist when I tried to "pull a hammie" to get discharged.

He explained that all the walking and marching and pushups and seemingly useless drills was how the army had always worked so nobody was about to change it.

But you are referring to the OTHER version where a person subjects themself to this WILLINGLY and there is a word for that which escapes me at present but was used by Emilio in The Way (which I'm not allowed to talk about anyway).

But then you may ask why I am IN this forum willingly subjecting myself to abuse from Mods and Minders and I have to say dunno - why do we do anything in this life?

Well, yes, there are a number of things I left of my list: "Greek Life Organizations" on campus come to mind... abusive spouses tend to operate with the same tactics... (isolation, defamiliarization, questioning personal sense of self and integrity etc)... Any institution that works with "total immersion and depersonalisation" (boarding schools, jails, psychiatric hospitals...).

I'd just never chosen to immerse myself in what is in many ways a "total institution" even though its temporary residents are always on the move and can check out any time they like...

 

[Camo]

"Greek Life Organizations" on campus come to mind

I had to look that one up as we have no such things in Australia at universities and it reminded me of Brokeback Mountain where the 2 wives are chatting and they come out with a string of words like Cappa Alpha so I looked it up and was astounded about what I read (on mind control in the "education" system).

What a slur on REAL Greek Life, is anybody complaining?