Camino authenticity

[Rebekah Scott]

Note from the mods: I was unable to put my introductory post above this post, so I will just paste it in:

On another thread, @Wendy Werneth introduced us to the Camiño Taverneiro, a short route through Galicia. Anyone interested in exploring off the beaten trail paths should definitely check it out.

The thread provoked criticism over authenticity. That is a broader topic applicable to many paths, and that discussion took us away from @Wendy Werneth’s original points. So I thought it’d be helpful to separate the authenticity debate into its own thread.

Opinions are strong here, so I’ve got my fingers crossed we can keep it civil.

This is Reb’s comment that started the discussion:


Just a historical nitpick: this is not a "rediscovered camino." It was confected, like a good number of other local "caminos," within the last few years by local interests...the same people often appear as 'founders' of more than one. Historical references and relation to the Santiago Way is vague, sketchy, or based on "local lore." That does not make it any less beautiful, fun, or challenging -- and no doubt somebody walked that way at some point to get to Santigo. Still, calling it a 'rediscovered camino" is a big stretch.

 

[Wendy Werneth]

Just a historical nitpick: this is not a "rediscovered camino." It was confected, like a good number of other local "caminos," within the last few years by local interests...the same people often appear as 'founders' of more than one. Historical references and relation to the Santiago Way is vague, sketchy, or based on "local lore." That does not make it any less beautiful, fun, or challenging -- and no doubt somebody walked that way at some point to get to Santigo. Still, calling it a 'rediscovered camino" is a big stretch.

Well, the route is named after Ignacio Taverneiro, a pilgrim who died on this route in 1784. An image of the document attesting to his death can be seen in the guidebook, along with other historical evidence that the route was known and used by pilgrims. You are free to draw your own conclusions about how "vague" or "sketchy" that evidence may be. That's not an argument I'm interested in having.

 

[Charrito]

Just a historical nitpick: this is not a "rediscovered camino." It was confected, like a good number of other local "caminos," within the last few years by local interests...the same people often appear as 'founders' of more than one. Historical references and relation to the Santiago Way is vague, sketchy, or based on "local lore." That does not make it any less beautiful, fun, or challenging -- and no doubt somebody walked that way at some point to get to Santigo. Still, calling it a 'rediscovered camino" is a big stretch.

All roads lead to Santiago, @Rebekah Scott !!!

 

[Rebekah Scott]

All roads lead to Santiago, @Rebekah Scott !!!

If that were true, there would be no Camino de Santiago... but in Galicia, it looks like every driveway and back road is now becoming a "Camino" of some kind. Pilgrims have been walking to Santiago from their homes for centuries, and lots of them died on the way. Does that mean every road they walked is now a "camino de santiago?" No.
Creating new "caminos" cheapens the historic ones. It also shows a bland disregard for history in general, and religious culture in specific. Time will tell which caminos survive the initial enthusiasm and the lives of the creators.
That said, what's wrong with walking a beautiful old pathway between lovely towns and friendly hosts? Not a thing. Why insist on pasting a "camino" label on it?

 

[Charrito]

If that were true, there would be no Camino de Santiago... but in Galicia, it looks like every driveway and back road is now becoming a "Camino" of some kind. Pilgrims have been walking to Santiago from their homes for centuries, and lots of them died on the way. Does that mean every road they walked is now a "camino de santiago?" No.
Creating new "caminos" cheapens the historic ones. It also shows a bland disregard for history in general, and religious culture in specific. Time will tell which caminos survive the initial enthusiasm and the lives of the creators.
That said, what's wrong with walking a beautiful old pathway between lovely towns and friendly hosts? Not a thing. Why insist on pasting a "camino" label on it?

I’ll reply later, Rebekah. Get ready for what I will say.

 

[Charrito]

If that were true, there would be no Camino de Santiago... but in Galicia, it looks like every driveway and back road is now becoming a "Camino" of some kind. Pilgrims have been walking to Santiago from their homes for centuries, and lots of them died on the way. Does that mean every road they walked is now a "camino de santiago?" No.
Creating new "caminos" cheapens the historic ones. It also shows a bland disregard for history in general, and religious culture in specific. Time will tell which caminos survive the initial enthusiasm and the lives of the creators.
That said, what's wrong with walking a beautiful old pathway between lovely towns and friendly hosts? Not a thing. Why insist on pasting a "camino" label on it?

I don't understand what you are trying to say here, Rebekah. Many of us have had more than enough of overcrowded caminos like the Francés or Portugués, and love 'discovering' lesser-known routes.

I don't seem to remember that you said the same when you 'discovered' the fantastic Camino de Invierno many years ago. Look at how this camino has taken off.

You talk about new "caminos" somehow "cheapening the historic ones and showing a bland disregard for history and culture". Are you serious?

Having recently walked the Via Künig, I'll be on the Taverneiro this October, after I've got back from the Geira e dos Arrieiros. Check out the history of these caminos, and hopefully you'll change your tune.

Regards from Salamanca.

 

[peregrina2000]

On another thread, @Wendy Werneth introduced us to the Camiño Taverneiro, a short route through Galicia. Anyone interested in exploring off the beaten trail paths should definitely check it out.

The thread provoked criticism over authenticity. That is a broader topic applicable to many paths, and that discussion took us away from @Wendy Werneth’s original points. So I thought it’d be helpful to separate the authenticity debate into its own thread.

Opinions are strong here, so I’ve got my fingers crossed we can keep it civil.

 

[Bradypus]

What is a "Camino"? What makes one "authentic"? All of today's routes are modern creations. There was only one named and recognised route when I walked my first Camino and even that had only existed in physical form as a specific signposted route for about five years at that point. The pilgrim office Compostela pre-registration page now lists 19 named routes plus "otros Caminos". All of them - the Frances included - are to some extent "confected" though of course there is far more evidence of pilgrim traffic in volume in previous centuries for some routes in particular. But I think that pilgrims would have made their way to Santiago by a far more complicated network of roads and paths than even today's sprawling spider web of officially designated "Caminos". The pilgrim office's decision to restrict the Compostela only to those who walk one of a limited number of designated routes seems to me to be a grave mistake which shifts the central focus of pilgrimage from the destination to the journey. Attempting to rank routes in terms of "authenticity" feels like another unnecessary and unproductive exercise. Does a route lead a pilgrim to Santiago? If so that makes it enough of a camino for me.

 

[lalaone]

I recently read an interesting academic article which may be relevant here - just in Norway for the ways of St Olav.

"Caminoisation" is perhaps a term that seems applicable? Or not? (Which in no way dampens my enthusiasm for these routes in Norway or the one in Galicia described above.) Interesting questions though, lots to ponder. Thanks for the discussion and Buen Camino

Abstract:
Through the case of St Olav Ways, the aim of this article is to shed light on the ways in which the contemporary pilgrimage phenomenon in Norway is developed through a combination of interpretations of local religious history and inspiration from international pilgrimage developments, the Camino de Santiago in particular. Pilgrimage is increasingly becoming visible as a contemporary phenomenon in Norway, as in several other European countries where pilgrimage was long discredited as a religious practice. From the 1990s, pilgrimage routes leading to historical shrines have been developed, initiated by agents ranging from grassroot enthusiasts to governmental ministries. This is analysed as the heritagisation of religion and Caminoisation. In a broader perspective, this pertains to how interfaces between the spheres of religion, politics and cultural heritage management are central to the development of contemporary pilgrimage landscapes. A further aim of this article is to demonstrate the importance of taking administrative and political processes into account for pilgrimage studies. The study is based on ethnographic fieldwork and document analysis.

Full article:

Local Pasts and International Inspirations: The Heritagisation and Caminoisation of Pilgrimage Landscapes in Norway

Through the case of St Olav Ways, the aim of this article is to shed light on the ways in which the contemporary pilgrimage phenomenon in Norway is developed through a combination of interpretations of local religious history and inspiration from international pilgrimage developments, the Camino...

www.mdpi.com

 

[Tincatinker]

Has anyone any evidence that the Yellow Brick Road was the authentic route to Oz? Isn’t it perfectly possible that it was in fact the only available escape route from Oz and, if followed diligently despite the challenges, would eventually bring the traveler to somewhere else entirely.

The “authenticity” of routes to Santiago is entirely within the purview of the hats and frocks of the Cathedral. The rest of us are at liberty to have opinions; those are probably best kept to ourselves.

 

[falcon269]

Before yellow arrows, I suspect that pilgrims headed generally to the west, using whatever cowpath, deer trail (were there deer?), or Roman iter that gave good footing. So much has been paved in the last century that following something authentic would get you run over by a speeding truck today. I agree, Reb, that there is a lot being labeled a camino that imagination is being stretched. The street warrens offer many final steps and routes to the Cathedral. Surely they cannot all be separate caminos.

 

[David Tallan]

I got into a similar discussion last week or the week before with someone on Facebook, who said all the most important French historians had agreed that the routes from Arles and Paris were the only authentic Jacobean routes in France and that the routes from Le Puy and Vezelay were modern inventions, without any valid sources to authenticate them. (Apparently, the Codex Calixtinus isn't a valid historical source.) I suspect that their point was that, while pilgrims walked from Le Puy and Vezelay, we have no assurances that they walked on the precise path that these routes currently take. The Codex gives a lot fewer intermediate locations for these routes before Roncesvalles than it does for the routes between Roncesvalles and Somport and Santiago, to be sure. But how many such points need identification for a route to be "authentic"? It all seems very subjective. And I'm pretty sure that the Camino Frances strays from the precise path that medieval pilgrims would have walked between the named villages and towns, especially where that path has been paved over and is now a major highway.

Personally, while I completely acknowledge the importance of the history behind the Camino Frances (there's a reason Gitlitz and Davidson is generally the first book I recommend), and the special experience of walking in the footsteps (as it were) of millions of pilgrims over more than a thousand years, I think what is most central to the pilgrim experience lies not in the route documentation but in the heart of the pilgrim.

 

[peregrino_tom]

Even a river (and its tributaries) can change course (oxbow lakes etc). If a river's coordinates shift over time, that doesn't invalidate its name or function. What is fundamental to understanding it (and giving it meaning) is what it carries, and where it carries that from and to.

 

[Sirage]

If I meander across Spain, which I intend to do again, along tracks and roads of my choosing, away from crowds, and pass through Santiago to Muxia, mostly along marked Caminos with various modern names, possibly along deviations that take my fancy, because I want to.

I will have a credential stamped probably in many places but possibly not in some, but probably from Ourense twice a day.

Is that a Camino? I really don't care about a label because I like the idea of immersing myself along another long slice of Spain.

 

[falcon269]

we have no assurances that they walked on the precise path that these routes currently take.

I cannot match Shirley MacLaines' book route in 1994, so I would be hopeless with the ninth century version. When you are on an actual section of a Roman road, at least you can be certain someone was there before, whether pilgrim or conqueror.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

This thread has now gotten me curious about the history of collecting Camino stamps. Nowadays, this is what you show to the pilgrim office to prove that you did the pilgrimage.

But how old is that phenomenon? When did the idea of walking certain routes where you would collect these stamps become the only way to get a certificate of completion?

I suspect at some point in the past it wasn't that way, and just showing up at the cathedral was enough. Of course, this would've been before planes and vehicles, when the only way to get to Santiago was on foot or wagon or horseback.

 

[Bradypus]

But how old is that phenomenon? When did the idea of walking certain routes where you would collect these stamps become the only way to get a certificate of completion?

There were credencials and sellos along the way in 1990 but there was no official minimum distance to receive a Compostela then and no fixed number of sellos required. Theoretically anyone who visited the cathedral and the tomb of the Apostle could ask for a Compostela but in practice only walking pilgrims did. The minimum distance was first set for the 1993 Holy Year. The demands for using only an official credencial and finding two sellos per day both came later. The rule requiring pilgrims to walk on recognised Camino routes for the final 100km to receive a Compostela only goes back to 2018.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

There were credencials and sellos along the way in 1990 but there was no official minimum distance to receive a Compostela then and no fixed number of sellos required. Theoretically anyone who visited the cathedral and the tomb of the Apostle could ask for a Compostela but in practice only walking pilgrims did. The minimum distance was first set for the 1993 Holy Year. The demands for using only an official credencial and finding two sellos per day both came later. The rule requiring pilgrims to walk on recognised Camino routes for the final 100km to receive a Compostela only goes back to 2018.

Much more recently than I thought. So pretty much no one has been keeping track of how pilgrims got to Santiago until quite recently? What do the Pilgrim office records say?

It would seem kind of hard to make an argument about which routes are authentic and which are not If it didn't matter until quite recently.

But I still wonder when sellos made their first appearance?

 

[MichaelB10398]

Much more recently than I thought. So pretty much no one has been keeping track of how pilgrims got to Santiago until quite recently? What do the Pilgrim office records say?

It would seem kind of hard to make an argument about which routes are authentic and which are not If it didn't matter until quite recently.

But I still wonder when sellos made their first appearance?

The pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostella has a long history. The distances traveled were tracked - the penitent needed to walk from a given point all the way to Santiago to gain forgiveness. The idea of gaining sellos along the way is a modern concept in an attempt to ensure that pilgrims were walking rather than other forms of travel. I will have to go back to some of books to see when sellos may have first appeared.

 

[Kathar1na]

But I still wonder when sellos made their first appearance?

Sellos in credentials made their first appearance in 1965 or in 1986, depending on what you wish to regard as authentic.

In 1965, the Spanish Ministry for Tourism developed a first credential that could be stamped. It was a project in the context of the Holy Year 1965. This credential or card could be stamped in a handful of Tourist Offices in major towns. You could obtain it in Jaca and in Valcarlos. You did not have to walk to Santiago, travelling by car was just fine.

In 1985/1986, the credential as we know it with its numerous boxes for stamps was developed by Spanish Camino associations in cooperation with the Cathedral of Santiago and Elias Valiña who acted as a Comisario-Coordinator.

Source: F. Lalanda, Historia de la Credencial

 

[Bradypus]

I will have to go back to some of books to see when sellos may have first appeared.

According to the chronology linked in this post the first modern credencial dates from 1958 - made by the French Camino association. Though I would imagine that any sellos collected at the time would not be Camino-specific.
Post in thread 'What's so special about SJPP?' https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/whats-so-special-about-sjpp.80751/post-1140470

 

[Stephan the Painter]

The pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostella has a long history. The distances traveled were tracked - the penitent needed to walk from a given point all the way to Santiago to gain forgiveness

Thanks, That's right, 1000 years give or take. So how were they tracking pre Sello?

In 1965 or in 1985, depending on what you wish to regard as authentic.

Thanks.

 

[Pilgrim9]

I wish the official credencials had much more space for stamp impressions. I have run out of space on all three of my long pilgrimages.

Needing two credencials to accommodate the stamp impressions collected during one full length CF or CP is a bodge.

 

[Kathar1na]

According to the chronology linked in this post the first modern credencial dates from 1958 - made by the French Camino association. Though I would imagine that any sellos collected at the time would not be Camino-specific.

I would have to look it up to be sure but I don't think that their 1958 version had spaces for collecting stamps.

 

[Bradypus]

Thanks, That's right, 1000 years give or take. So how were they tracking pre Sello?

I think there is a misunderstanding behind the question. For the medieval pilgrims the spiritual benefits of pilgrimage lay in visiting the relics of the saints and receiving the sacraments in the destination church. The actual travelling was incidental - a means to an end. The route followed and the means of travel used were not particularly relevant in themselves. So no church authority would need to keep track of how and where pilgrims were travelling except perhaps to provide infrastructure and protection along the most travelled routes.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

I think there is a misunderstanding behind the question. For the medieval pilgrims the spiritual benefits of pilgrimage lay in visiting the relics of the saints and receiving the sacraments in the destination church. The actual travelling was incidental - a means to an end. The route followed and the means of travel used were not particularly relevant in themselves. So no church authority would need to keep track of how and where pilgrims were travelling except perhaps to provide infrastructure and protection along the most travelled routes.

I only asked this because @MichaelB10398 said they were tracking somehow pre-sello....?

 

[Kathar1na]

I would have to look it up to be sure but I don't think that their 1958 version had spaces for collecting stamps.

I checked. It didn't. The 1958 version of the pilgrim passport or credential was a simple letter in French and in Spanish. It was still in use in 1982.


Source: https://www.saint-jacques.info/carnet.html

 

[CarolamS]

My impression was that originally you had a signed letter from your Bishop when you left home 'back in the day'. I've no idea if this is true.

 

[Tincatinker]

Much depended on where you lived, when you lived and how you lived. Enthusiastic peasantry would probably need a letter from a priest but more important would be a let from their landlord to whom they owed labour as well as rent. The Landlord would probably need a letter from the Bish and anyone with significant land-holdings, or significant debts, would need a licence from the king

 

[Juspassinthru]

Interesting topic. I heard for the first time this year while walking my 3rd Camino the terms “real Camino” and “real Pilgrim”. I love history of all types including the history(s) of the Camino. I’ve read the English translation of the Codex Calixtinus and it mentions only 4 routes which all converge in Punte la Reina. The Camino Francés still follows the general route mentioned in the Codex but I don’t believe that if a Pilgrim 1000 years ago walked, rode or sailed to Spain and then made their way to Santiago by some different route they’d be turned away. I respect tradition, in fact I’ve embraced the tradition of the Camino 3 times. But, if an ancient or new pilgrim made their way on a different route, they’re a “real” pilgrim in my book.

Okay, I’m prepared for the slings and arrows.

 

[BombayBill]

This debate reminds me of debates on “authentic “ architecture. I live in an area where your housing design is supposed to have historical antecedent. My counter argument is how do you decide when history begins or ends. Maybe my housing design, while have no precedent, will be considered historic 100 years hence.

In my view arriving in SdC after a thoughtful journey is a Camino no matter the route.

 

[JustJack]

What is a "Camino"? What makes one "authentic"? All of today's routes are modern creations. There was only one named and recognised route when I walked my first Camino and even that had only existed in physical form as a specific signposted route for about five years at that point. The pilgrim office Compostela pre-registration page now lists 19 named routes plus "otros Caminos". All of them - the Frances included - are to some extent "confected" though of course there is far more evidence of pilgrim traffic in volume in previous centuries for some routes in particular. But I think that pilgrims would have made their way to Santiago by a far more complicated network of roads and paths than even today's sprawling spider web of officially designated "Caminos". The pilgrim office's decision to restrict the Compostela only to those who walk one of a limited number of designated routes seems to me to be a grave mistake which shifts the central focus of pilgrimage from the destination to the journey. Attempting to rank routes in terms of "authenticity" feels like another unnecessary and unproductive exercise. Does a route lead a pilgrim to Santiago? If so that makes it enough of a camino for me.

The French route has existed and been promoted as a pilgrim route since the middle ages. There were plenty of geo-political, economic, and safety reasons for herding pilgrims back then along a particular path, and that path (for europeans traveling from homes in places not south of SDC) was the Camino Francis. Many of the towns, villages and cities along that route were developed for or as a result of the Camino Francis and the pilgrims that walked it.

Anyone interested in the history of the Camino de Santiago should give a listen to the podcast series The Scholarly Pilgrim, by John Seasholtz. It's fascinating to learn how the camino developed, and what pilgrimage was like back then. Spoiler alert: the journey was quite similar back then, but the motivations were not.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Wow, that nitpick escalated quickly.
I am a historian. The history of the Camino de Santiago routes is very much in existence, in all kinds of historic, cultural, geographical, and architectural ways. It is not regulated or owned by the cathedral in Santiago, it belongs to all of us... but it is A THing. We don't get to split it up or shift it around and re-package it to suit ourselves.
The "Ur Text" for modern history buffs is the three-volume "Las Peregrinaciones a Santiago de Compostela," by Luis Vazquez de Parga, Jose Maria Lacarra, and Juan Uria Rius, published in 1948. It is comprehensive, covering everything from prehistory to the medival confraternities that ran albergues, to legends of the Cruz de Ferro. It details the massive travel enterprise of centuries of pilgrims, the towns they passed through, and the services they found there... especially the religious sites that pilgrims were keen to visit. It rounds up and summarizes all the historic texts we all refer back to in more modern translations... "Peregrinaciones" has never been translated to English, alas!
We know where the Camino de Santiago was/is, because it's left its tracks all over the culture and history of the towns and countryside. An "authentic" road of this significance does not require deep dives into local archives for evidence, especially when town itself has "camino" in its very name.
Particular parts of the path have shifted over the centuries as the landscape changed, roads and bridges were built, etc. The English Way, the Aragonese, the Norte, and the Camino Frances are all unquestionably historic camino paths, as codified by historians and the remains of pilgrim hostels, Santiago churches, songs, and legends of a thousand years.
The historians who wrote the "Peregrinaciones" didn't talk about every path that ever led to Santiago de Compostela. They wrote about the Way de Santiago -- the unquestionably historic road that UNESCO declared "patrimony de humanidad," the road that's been called "the main street of Europe," the phenomenon experienced by millions of pilgrims over a thousand years. It is a real place in the real world.
This is history. It is not opinion.
I think the "Camino" label merits more respect. Not every road a pilgrim has walked is a Camino de Santiago.
But I also realize this is a very small issue in a world with much bigger problems to solve.

 

[MichaelB10398]

Thanks, That's right, 1000 years give or take. So how were they tracking pre Sello?

Thanks.

Greetings, the pilgrims of those days did not have many alternatives for transportation - over time it grew from walking, horse, or wagons. The expense of using a horse or wagon were only available to those capable of the care - thus, the wealthy. The common pilgrim walked. When they showed up at the Cathedrale they earned their Compostela. Many pilgrims of those early days were often criminals or those deemed having committed a deadly or capital sins. They could use their Compostela to gain release from prison or other forms of "penance" or sentence.

You are kind to bring up these kinds of topics. Sometimes we can forget about the depth of the pilgrims sacrifice and reasons for walking over the long history of the Camino.

 

[WGroleau]

I am also very interested in history, but for me, the question of authenticity is irrelevant to the Camino. I know the reasons sellos came about, but their value to me is the mnemonic of the places I walked through. I might walk where there are no sellos for the scenery and history. Where there are sellos, those other reasons also apply. But that’s just me—YMMV.

 

[Blister Bill]

Greetings, the pilgrims of those days did not have many alternatives for transportation - over time it grew from walking, horse, or wagons. The expense of using a horse or wagon were only available to those capable of the care - thus, the wealthy. The common pilgrim walked.

Great topic to bring up and something I mull over when looking at the plethora of routes. No stamps needed if there is no alternative transport. No taxis and Correos...and then they walked back! That is often in my mind when arriving at SdC - to have to turn around and retrace my steps. I often think of two things if a medieval pilgrim. One is when walking out my door to get on to a main route asap for navigation, safety in numbers, hospitals etc. contrasted with 2. To get there by the most direct (shortest/easiest) route possible. Getting a boat to the nearest port affordable and walking the safest most direct route to SDC. That would have driven my route decision. I think Chaucer reveals a lot - pilgrims gathering and setting off as a group. So of course pilgrims went by a myriad of routes but ultimately a lot were feeders presumably for the main highways of the day. The more popular the route the more evidence remains in name, source and structure. Like today, if there's money to be made (demand) the infrastructure follows and is maintained. One dead pilgrim does not a camino make but what is a Camino and therefore deserves the honorific?

 

[MichaelB10398]

.... I think Chaucer reveals a lot - pilgrims gathering and setting off as a group.

I find great joy in Chaucer’s works, and I believe you are correct in noting that pilgrims often gathered together. There was safety in numbers, as well as other advantages. Chaucer’s portrayal of pilgrims highlights the folly and crassness inherent in humanity. The penitent pilgrim, far from being a paragon of holiness, represents a human soul in search of forgiveness. Much like today, some sought forgiveness with minimal effort, while others gave their all.

The Camino de Santiago was not a path of pleasure, but one fraught with both physical and spiritual challenges. The journey to Santiago de Compostela was marked by pain, while the return was filled with humble gratitude. I think many, if not most, find those same feelings today. Though the Way has certainly become a path enjoyed for more varied reasons, it is not surprising that most still find it of spirituality.