Compostela: Electric Bikes Excluded?

[Peterexpatkiwi]

I am confused and not attempting to cause further annoyance ....but what is the difference between riding an electric power "bike" and a petrol powered "bike" to travel a Camino route?
It seems that there is a tiny bit of acceptance (not compostela) but not anyone making a case for gas power.

Is there actually a higher acceptance of one mode of power over the other?

Sadly this is a very emotive topic for some.

In short what we're talking about is the difference between an e-bike which is electrically assisted - if you do not pedal you are not going anywhere - and a motorbike which is powered - no exertion from the rider required. Legally, the former may be ridden on the camino, the second only on sections open to motor vehicles. @Kathar1na has done her usual thorough job of outlining this above.

As to acceptance or not: there are 200 responses above, (and many, many more elsewhere)some of which cover this.

 

[Former member 118323]

I think If you do it by horse, the horse should get the Compostela!

What's the real difference between an E bike and a moped? Degree? If you let the E-bikes get a Compostela, then you really have let any motorized vehicle.

So by your standards if, God forbid (just to remind the scalp hunters of the origins of a pilgrimage), your spinal cord is severely damaged then you cannot use an electric wheelchair, or an e-Trike, perhaps an e-Bike (with less power than many wheelchairs), to complete your camino on a shared trail (very little is pedestrian only, and nothing is restricted for the chronically disabled). Note that much of the trail is used by local cycling groups, randonneurs and farmers tending their fields.

Further, despite the Church considers your injuries sufficient to warrant that mode of transport, the scalp hunters then consider they have a self-declared power of veto? Really?

I think some contributors need to inwardly reflect on why they are still traversing camino in Spain to SdC when they have declared the routes are so congested. Are they now congested because folks are not using the routes for their original purpose but for a sport or pastime? If this is the case then why not relieve the congestion by jumping on a shared trail to Lourdes, Rome, Budapest or Poland?

Then the camino will have less congestion. Make way for the first-timers …

 

[Kathor1]

I am confused and not attempting to cause further annoyance ....but what is the difference between riding an electric power "bike" and a petrol powered "bike" to travel a Camino route?
It seems that there is a tiny bit of acceptance (not compostela) but not anyone making a case for gas power.

The terminology is not uniform, hence the confusion.

In Spain, and numerous other EU countries, e-bike or bicicleta electrica is a bike for which you do not need a driver license; you do not need insurance; you have to pedal all the time while driving - if you don't pedal you don't move forwards; you cannot go faster than 25 km/h with the motor assisting you, if you use so much of you own power by pedalling that you go faster than 25 km/h than the motor switches itself off completely.

Everything else on two wheels (whether electrical motor or gas powered motor) is considered as a motorised vehicle and needs a driver licence; insurance; and there is a legal age limit for using it.

(As always, I am happy to be corrected but I think that these are the main characteristics and differences)

 

[Kirkie]

I think If you do it by horse, the horse should get the Compostela!

What's the real difference between an E bike and a moped? Degree? If you let the E-bikes get a Compostela, then you really have let any motorized vehicle.

The best yet!

 

[Stephan the Painter]

So if, God forbid (just to remind the scalp hunters of the origins of a pilgrimage), your spinal cord is severely damaged then you cannot use an electric wheelchair, or an e-Trike, perhaps an e-Bike (with less power than many wheelchairs), to complete your camino if you choose on a shared trail (very little is pedestrian only, and nothing is restricted for the chronically disabled). Further, if the Church considers your injuries sufficient to warrant that mode of transport, the scalp hunters have the power of veto? Really? I think some contributors need to inwardly reflect on why they are doing another camino.
Then the camino will have less congestion. Make way for the first-timers … perhaps resemble the attitude of the 70’s?

Well, this scalp hunter has no power to veto anything. It's just my opinion.
Of course, if you're disabled, I would support special dispensation. I just don't know how you would design a system to support that.

But for those without disabilities, no e-bikes or powered anything. I wasn't completely joking, I do think the horse should get the Compostela.

 

[Former member 118323]

Well this scalp hunter has no power to veto anything. It's just my opinion.
Of course if you're disabled, I would support special dispensation.

But for those without disabilities, no e-bikes or powered anything. I wasn't completely joking, I do think the horse should get the Compostela.

Or, perhaps the able-bodied shoes get the Compostela, since they carried them. Of note, some disabled will complete the return route as well. Mine starts near La Rochelle, Nouvelle Aquitaine. The rules for e-Bikes in France are some of the most draconian in Europe (thank goodness).

 

[Kathor1]

I wasn't completely joking, I do think the horse should get the Compostela.

That's where the "traditional method" comes into play ... people sometimes argue that riding a horse is physically demanding. But (pure guessing on my behalf) that's not the point. Traditional pilgrims of yore did travel to Santiago on horseback and traditional pilgrims of yore did travel by non-motorised ships to Santiago. By their hundreds if not by their thousands. Hence (pure guessing on my behalf), you get a Compostela for these two very traditional modes of pilgrimage. Especially on sailing boats - you can be just a passenger without having to be involved in navigation.

 

[Former member 118323]

That's where the "traditional method" comes into play ... people sometimes argue that riding a horse is physically demanding. But (pure guessing on my behalf) that's not the point. Traditional pilgrims of yore did travel to Santiago on horseback and traditional pilgrims of yore did travel by non-motorised ships to Santiago. By their hundreds if not by their thousands. Hence (pure guessing on my behalf), you get a Compostela for these two very traditional modes of pilgrimage. Especially on sailing boats - you can be just a passenger without having to be involved in navigation.

I suspect that 200 yrs ago, if you were carried to SdC on a hand-drawn cart by your family (or perhaps retainers) then you would have been greeted like any other pilgrim.

 

[grayland]

In Spain, and numerous other EU countries, e-bike or bicicleta electrica is a bike for which you do not need a driver license; you do not need insurance; you have to pedal all the time while driving - if you don't pedal you don't move forwards; you cannot go faster than 25 km/h with the motor assisting you, if you use so much of you own power by pedalling that you go faster than 25 km/h than the motor switches itself off completely.

Everything else on two wheels (whether electrical motor or gas powered motor) is considered as a motorised vehicle and needs a driver licence; insurance; and there is a legal age limit for using it.

I think that is the confusion as I understood as e-bikes types in the US are often lumped together...but most common seems to be the throttle controlled electric engine that does not require any pedaling to achieve motive power.
Some of the posts above seem to include the full electric motor type in remarks.

Either way....except for physical need I see little to recommend.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Traditional pilgrims of yore did travel to Santiago on horseback and traditional pilgrims of yore did travel by non-motorised ships to Santiago.

I suspect that 200 yrs ago, if you were carried to SdC on a hand-drawn cart by your family (or perhaps retainers) then you would have been greeted like any other pilgrim.

And sometime in the not-too-distant past, you could get a Compostela by driving to Santiago, I believe. All you had to do was show up at the Cathedral. But I suspect that driving to Galicia was quite the adventure back in the 1960s.

I would argue that the idea of the Camino de Santiago pilgrimage has changed in the last 50 years. I feel comfortable saying that most people who do the Camino De Santiago believe that the best practice is to walk. And it's not quite the same if you do it a different way.

In my OPINION, E-bikes, etc. are motorized vehicles, and should not be allowed on the shared trail. It's lucky that I'm not in charge of anything, isn't it?

My first walking Camino was hijacked by an injury, and I ended up finishing it on a pedal bike. Two years later, I felt the need to come back and walk it. In order to be able to do that I spent a significant time training my body, and working with doctors so that I wouldn't have a repeat of the injuries.

I understand walking 100 - 800 km isn't possible for some people. But others are not willing to put in the time to train. Of course, I would bend over backward to help someone who was physically incapable of walking the Camino to make it possible for them.

 

[Kathor1]

And sometime in the not-too-distant past, you could get a Compostela by driving to Santiago, I believe. All you had to do was show up at the Cathedral. But I suspect that driving to Galicia was quite the adventure back in the 1960s.

I am not sure. I wonder whether you are confusing something with a diploma that the Spanish Tourism Ministry had introduced for the Holy Year 1965. It was not awarded by the Cathedral.

However, this matters little for today’s e-bike riders, and the Cathedral does not have to justify or defend their rules for awarding Compostelas.

I am not familiar with their earlier practice. What I do know and have mentioned a few times, however with little echo in these threads, is this observation: For most of its existence, the text of the Compostela confirmed that the holder had confessed before a priest, had received absolution from the priest and had received the Eucharist. It said nothing about the mode of travel of the holder to and from the Cathedral of Santiago. The current text of the Compostela describes the mode of travel of the holder but the text about confession, absolution and the Eucharist has disappeared from the contemporary Compostela.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

I am not sure. I wonder whether you are confusing something with a diploma that the Spanish Tourism Ministry had introduced for the Holy Year 1965. It was not awarded by the Cathedral.

You are probably right. I'd thought read it somewhere but I can't locate the reference. If it did happen, it was only for a brief period. But I don't think anybody was asking, because it wasn't a requirement. And I doubt they were giving you a choice for a religious or cultural Compostela either.

Thank you, It's interesting about the wording of the Compostela. And that shows how it's evolved. And I guess part of the reason is that until the late 1800s when they introduced train service to Santiago, it was a lot of work to get there from anywhere. No matter how you went.

 

[Bradypus]

The current text of the Compostela describes the mode of travel of the holder but the text about confession, absolution and the Eucharist has disappeared from the contemporary Compostela.

The Compostela text mentioning mode of travel and minimum distance only dates from the redesign in 2014. Very recent. The distance certificate was introduced at the same time. The first two Compostelas I received made no reference to distance or mode of travel. Or to receiving the sacraments either.

 

[JabbaPapa]

And sometime in the not-too-distant past, you could get a Compostela by driving to Santiago, I believe. All you had to do was show up at the Cathedral. But I suspect that driving to Galicia was quite the adventure back in the 1960s.

Not quite so simple I believe, though car drivers could obtain a Compostela.

Unless I'm mistaken, they did need to fulfil the religious obligations of making confession and attending Mass at the Cathedral to qualify in that circumstance, though some stats from Roncesvalles in the same period did show that some non-Catholics and non-Christians would walk to Santiago.

 

[Kathor1]

The Compostela text mentioning mode of travel and minimum distance only dates from the redesign in 2014. Very recent. The distance certificate was introduced at the same time. The first two Compostelas I received made no reference to distance or mode of travel. Or to receiving the sacraments either.

Thank you. My main point is that we ought to be aware of these facts and these changes when we make pronouncements about what the Compostela is, why it is awarded and who ought to get it or should not get it in our personal opinions.

 

[Robo]

Isn’t this all rather ‘academic’ anyway? Why worry?

If a person decides to break the rules for getting a Compostela, they are hardly going to tell anyone in the Pilgrim’s office are they? Just like those doing it by coach….

Or maybe there will be a e-bike checkpoint on the way into Santiago? To check the type of ebike.

 

[Kathor1]

Why assume that the main purpose of this announcement, or rather this confirmation, is the prevention of fraud?

E-bikes and traditional bicycles are regarded as equivalent in traffic law in Spain so it is not surprising that people assume that they are equivalent as to the qualification for Compostelas. The announcement and confirmation of current rules that this is not the case is useful information for those who use e-bikes on the pilgrimage roads to Santiago. Accurate and correct information comes first and it is then a question of honesty and trust.

 

[dick bird]

Really? 250W street legal eBike (or e-Trike) and a petrol engine … pray tell me the “no difference”.

He is expressing an opinion. In his subjective view, how a person who cannot walk as freely as he rest of us arrives in Santiago is of no importance to him. I agree.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Isn’t this all rather ‘academic’ anyway? Why worry?

If a person decides to break the rules for getting a Compostela, they are hardly going to tell anyone in the Pilgrim’s office are they? Just like those doing it by coach….

Or maybe there will be a e-bike checkpoint on the way into Santiago? To check the type of ebike.

Exactly.
The Compostela had some importance as a form of proof in the past. People sometimes were sentenced to walk the Camino, I believe? I would suspect, especially if you were from very far away, that it would confirm some status on you in the church. Something like doing the Hajj still does if my understanding is clear.

But now? If a spiritual overseer is paying any attention to all of this, I'm pretty sure that they know whether you fulfilled the pilgrimage obligations or not. It boggles my mind that someone would "cheat." What value would that have? Impress your friends?

I personally love E-bikes, and hope for a future when our cities are filled with them instead of cars. But I've rented them a few times and it takes a very little physical effort. If you had enough juice you could probably get from Roncevalles to Santiago in less than a week. If a lot of them were used, it would cause infrastructure difficulties, and I wonder if that was a consideration when the no e-bike decision was made.

On a side note, something I haven't seen here (and would probably be better for another post) is comparing the past and present Camino with the past and present Hajj.

 

[Bradypus]

On a side note, something I haven't seen here (and would probably be better for another post) is comparing the past and present Camino with the past, and present Hajj.

Apart from the fact that both have religious roots they are fundamentally different in almost every aspect. Though as you say probably best discussed elsewhere.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Isn’t this all rather ‘academic’ anyway? Why worry?

If a person decides to break the rules for getting a Compostela, they are hardly going to tell anyone in the Pilgrim’s office are they? Just like those doing it by coach….

Or maybe there will be a e-bike checkpoint on the way into Santiago? To check the type of ebike.

I would guess that the same Albergues that refuse pack transport and suitcases, with certain exceptions for disability etc, will start to refuse e-bikes with the same sorts of exceptions.

Come to think of it, this question is very similar to an old 1990s matter concerning motorised support vehicles, who could make legitimate use of them and who could not.

 

[Lindsay from Scotland]

They all forms of motorised transport no different from taking a bus

 

[Tincatinker]

They all forms of motorised transport no different from taking a bus

You've obviously never tried to bus The Camino. Autocarres, Monbus, ALSA and all the rest do their level best (masonic reference there ) to protect the purity of the Camino by ensuring that all their timetables are inaccessible, unintelligible and most importantly, disjointed.

I did once manage to create an itinerary for an aspirant pilgrim https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/burgos-to-sarria-in-a-day.87949/post-1275956 I think I invested 4 hours in that bit of frippery. Never got a thank you but then I didn't really expect one.

As far as I'm concerned a Pilgrim to the shrine of Santiago, one who may once have touched the divine, can get there by any whatever means enable them to make that pilgrimage. Those of us that can walk have that privilege. What we don't have is the privilege to define a pilgrim or to define their pilgrimage. If we think we do then we really need to walk it again, and again, and again until we don't need to anymore.

I tried to stay out of this thread though I watched it's drift from a report of a simple statement from the Cathedral authority "Compostela: Electric Bikes Excluded" to some valueless debate about "who" is entitled to do what, with which and to whom (the limerick is available on Godgle).

I'm looking forward to my swan-song camino. Pre-booked hotels, luggage transport, short days. I'll go say hi to the old boy one more time. I'll be on pilgrimage. Anyone wanna disagree?

 

[Former member 118323]

Having discussed removing e-bikes from the camino routes, has anybody (apart from Kathar1na) recognised that the EV3 (EuroVelo3) shares much of the camino route to Compostela from Scandinavia. The countries that maintain the EV3 gain support via EU regional grants … the EV3 is not far from our house in France. EV3 does not distinguish between bicycles.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Having discussed removing e-bikes from the camino routes, has anybody (apart from Kathar1na) recognised that the EV3 (EuroVelo3) shares much of the camino route to Compostela from Scandinavia. The countries that maintain the EV3 gain support via EU regional grants … the EV3 is not far from our house in France. EV3 does not distinguish between bicycles.

Despite all this discourse here, you are welcome to ride an E-bike along the Camino. Nobody's stopping you or anyone.

The only thing that's a fact here (I think) is that you can not get a Compostela from the Catholic Church and pilgrim office for riding an e-bike to Santiago. If your goal is to get a Compostela, you might get better results by trying to lobby them to change the rules.

It's only the federal and regional governments in Spain that would have any power to restrict E-bikes, and they're not doing that (as far as I know).

All the other words here are just people's opinions.

 

[Kathor1]

I am not sure that this is sufficiently clear: In Spain, these e-bikes that are legally equivalent with traditional bikes cannot go faster than 25 km/h when assisted and the motor is limited to 250 W. And the motor provides assistance only while pedalling. The assistance is progressive - the faster you ride the less assistance you get from the motor. This is an EU wide standard - it is not a world wide standard.

In Spain, everything else that does not correspond to all these 3 technical requirements is classified as ciclomotores and not as bicicletas eléctricas.

In other words, what is an electric bike in one's own country is not necessarily a bicicleta electrica in Spain.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Was that in Spain or in the USA?

I am not sure that this is sufficiently clear: in Spain, these e-bikes that are legally equivalent with traditional bikes cannot go faster than 25 km/h when assisted and the motor is limited to 250 W. And the motor provides assistance only while pedalling. The assistance is progressive - the faster you ride the less assistance you get from the motor. This is an EU wide standard - it is not a world wide standard.

In Spain, everything else that does not correspond to all these 3 technical requirements is classified as ciclomotores and not as bicicletas eléctricas.

In other words, what is an electric bike in your country is not necessarily a bicicleta electrica in Spain.

I've only used them in Spain. All I meant to say is that I experienced that they're very easy to ride compared to a purely pedal bicycle. (Edit: And possibly the pilgrim office agrees with that, which is why they've disallowed them?)

Anyway, all this is just a thought exercise. It's my opinion. Nothing else. Everybody else is fine to ride the bicycle they want, on or off the Camino as well as run the rest of their lives as they please!

 

[Kathor1]

Technical specifications are important for understanding the issue. I had a look at the definition of electric bike in Wikipedia in EN, ES, DE and FR. Wikipedia articles are not always correct but they provide a pretty good idea of what people mean by words they use in their own language. I recommend this method. It dawned on me that, at least in the past, some posters have written repeatedly and extensively about this topic without being aware of what exactly is understood by a bicicleta electrica in Spain.

Technical specifications are different from opinions on whether users of bicicletas electricas in Spain ought to get a Compostela or not if the poster could decide; or whether it should be forbidden to ride on certain trails; and so on.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

I don' t agree . Technical specifications are not an opinion. I had a look at the definition of electric bike in Wikipedia. EN, ES, DE and FR. Wikipedia articles are not always correct but they provide a pretty good idea of what people mean by words they use in their own language. I recommend this method. It dawned on me that, at least in the past, some posters have written extensively on this topic without being aware of what is understood by a bicicleta electrica on Spain.

What is an opinion is whether users of bicicletas electricas ought to get a Compostela or not if the poster could decide; whether it should be forbidden to ride on certain trails; and so on. I did not participate in this exchange of opinions.

I have no opinion on the technical details of what qualifies as an electric bicycle because I know nothing about that. And I never said anything about that.

My only opinion is that they shouldn't be used on the Camino which the pilgrim office happens to agree with. My opinion is that electric bicycles are much easier to pedal than regular bicycles. And that's the only thing I ever said so I don't know why you're going off on this tangent.

 

[Kathor1]

FWIW: My posts are addressed to the conversation thread as a whole. When I use a quote from a previous post I often do so in order to continue a thought on a subthread because I feel it will help to make clear to readers what it is about in a thread of 200+ posts where the conversation goes into several different directions. It is nothing personal.

PS: I've now gone through my last posts and edited out quotes to turn them into standalone comments.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

FWIW: My posts are addressed to the conversation thread as a whole.

You're fine. There are a lot of posts on this thread with a lot of different information. I understand.

I did say something about all the posts on this thread being opinions, and since I haven't read every single post on this thread, I shouldn't have said that. I can only vouch for myself.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

I wasn't completely joking, I do think the horse should get the Compostela.

If you are saying that the rider should not, I think you are saying that you don’t ride horses much. It takes a lot of strength and stamina to ride that distance, sometimes up and down steep hills, on a horse.

 

[dick bird]

If you are saying that the rider should not, I think you are saying that you don’t ride horses much. It takes a lot of strength and stamina to ride that distance, sometimes up and down steep hills, on a horse.

I am sure that if a horse applied and answered all the questions properly, the Pilgrim Office would be happy to grant them a compostela

 

[Stephan the Painter]

If you are saying that the rider should not, I think you are saying that you don’t ride horses much. It takes a lot of strength and stamina to ride that distance, sometimes up and down steep hills, on a horse.

I think I liked that idea best: the horse AND the rider should get the Compostela. Aren't there some sort of animal rights laws in the EU that would cover that?

 

[dick bird]

I think I liked that idea best: the horse AND the rider should get the Compostela. Aren't there some sort of animal rights laws in the EU that would cover that?

I have a creeping sense of horror that before long, someone will be suggesting that accompanying dogs should also get a compostela.

 

[Bradypus]

I have a creeping sense of horror that before long, someone will be suggesting that accompanying dogs should also get a compostela.

People have already gone down that road.
Thread 'Credentials for peRRegrinos and the charity APACA' https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...-for-perregrinos-and-the-charity-apaca.56099/

 

[Former member 118323]

A pawsitive move in my opinion …

 

[peregrina2000]

We have two current “ebikes and compostelas” threads, so I am going to close this one and link to the other one. Some members are finding it confusing to have two on the same topic. It is too late to merge the threads because it would make for a hopelessly confusing string of two different conversations merged into one.

And since this one has devolved into horses and dogs, I’ve decided to close this one.

For those who want to continue the e-bike discussion, go here.