Were we conned outside Sarria

[Peter Cannon]

As two of us left Sarria on 30th June we were approached by a couple of girls in a field purporting to be collecting for a new school for deaf children. We signed our names on their sheet, handed over a donation of 10 euro and went on our way as the girls extracted further donation from another pilgrim.
As I walked I wondered about this event and as I think on it I come to the conclusion that we were conned. Oh well. No harm done !

 

[Bradypus]

You and many others I'm afraid. A very long running con which has often been reported here.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I cannot believe they are still at it. Clearly it works.

 

[Tincatinker]

Think of it as live theatre, an artistic performance of such an effective intensity that you chose to reward the performers.

I also am astonished that this old chestnut is still running in the West End (of Sarria).

 

[denisejoines]

They are good at their con - i gave them a couple of euros for their performance and with the acknowledgment that, if these two girls are spending their time with this game on the camino, there's a need that perhaps a couple of euros could be helpful with. I'm just a traveller, passing through, and was happy to help them when they asked, especially on the off chance that their story was genuine. But the con was obvious.

 

[Katherine Fugate]

Yes, we saw them in Sarria and on Camino paths on our pilgrimage. We see the same in Paris all the time, again usually teen girls or young adult women. Though sometimes while you are signing the clipboard another girl is pickpocketing you while you are distracted. I have come to learn to avoid any and all people with clipboards, especially in any sort of tourist setting. But flip side is the reminder you have a kind and generous nature and recognizing you are a giver, not a taker.

 

[domigee]

Though sometimes while you are signing the clipboard another girl is pickpocketing you while you are distracted.

Yes, be aware of this when travelling, I hear it happens in Paris (not happened to me there, yet) but it happened to me in London. Entering Charing X station.
Not actually pickpocketting but whilst distracting you, another one slashes your shopping bags....
I've always avoided those people on the Camino.

 

[jefferyonthecamino]

As two of us left Sarria on 30th June we were approached by a couple of girls in a field purporting to be collecting for a new school for deaf children. We signed our names on their sheet, handed over a donation of 10 euro and went on our way as the girls extracted further donation from another pilgrim.
As I walked I wondered about this event and as I think on it I come to the conclusion that we were conned. Oh well. No harm done !

five years later, and they are still operating the area. i even saw them, or their gang, in SdC a couple weeks ago, and as far back as Biduedo (near O Cebreiro) once...

photo is from last year, being stopped by the guardia civil (police) near Sarria. no arrest made and they were told to move on; which they did, only to resurface the following day

pain in the bum and not nice people

 

[James Borden]

five years later, and they are still operating the area. i even saw them, or their gang, in SdC a couple weeks ago, and as far back as Biduedo (near O Cebreiro) once...

photo is from last year, being stopped by the guardia civil (police) near Sarria. no arrest made and they were told to move on; which they did, only to resurface the following day

pain in the bum and not nice people

View attachment 34741

Obviously they were eating pretty good.

 

[MinaKamina]

Since many are ready and willing to donate for the deaf, let me point out that the genuine charities are being robbed of various donations. And this has been going on for years and years, on a daily basis.

Just think what they might have done (or do) with the money.

 

[Tio Huero]

As two of us left Sarria on 30th June we were approached by a couple of girls in a field purporting to be collecting for a new school for deaf children. We signed our names on their sheet, handed over a donation of 10 euro and went on our way as the girls extracted further donation from another pilgrim.
As I walked I wondered about this event and as I think on it I come to the conclusion that we were conned. Oh well. No harm done !

So, I'm thinking I'd hit them with some of the alphabet in sign language, courtesy of a speech pathologist I once dated (don't ask, it's not a pretty story). If they can't respond in sign language (not that most of us would know anyhow) just walk away. Then again, what's a cople of Euros?

 

[Hiawatha]

Live and working outside the Cathedral at Santiago de Compostella this very afternoon .

 

[SYates]

Welcome to the forum @Peter Cannon and @denise Joines

Yes, this things do happen - on the Camino and off the Camino. Just do yourself a favour and don't let this hinder you to help others in need. You hardly ever know when it is a real need and when a con. And in the end, better to err on the charitable side than to let anybody go without a help that is much needed.

Buen Camino, SY

 

[JabbaPapa]

IIRC it's based on a genuine scheme that the French initiated back in the 1980s -- the scam version appeared almost instantly, so it's been going on for at least 30 years.

 

[VNwalking]

You and many of us.
Well, once burned...

I've seen them at O Cebreiro and past Portomarin, and am told they have 'helpers/handlers' with a car; it's a pretty obvious scam. But one thing I have wondered is how 'voluntary' their work is.

As others have said - it's important to keep giving when there is genuine need, when we know the recipients are legitimate. These two definitely aren't.

 

[Tincatinker]

But one thing I have wondered is how 'voluntary' their work is.

Gang-masters will usually set a 'target' for daily earnings. Violence, or the threat of derogation to another income stream such as prostitution or drug-trafficking are the usual incentives. The girl crying in the rain in the late night streets of Santiago, Paris or London may well have a specific story to tell but is likely to be short of expectations and just scared to go home.

 

[Icacos]

Gang-masters will usually set a 'target' for daily earnings. Violence, or the threat of derogation to another income stream such as prostitution or drug-trafficking are the usual incentives. The girl crying in the rain in the late night streets of Santiago, Paris or London may well have a specific story to tell but is likely to be short of expectations and just scared to go home.

This is what worries me about those girls. I wonder just how desperate they are, and if anyone out there is trying to help them.

 

[fraluchi]

This is a profitable business, because too many well-intended pilgrims fall in the trap.

 

[linkster]

I fell for the scam. It was our first day. I only gave them a couple of euros which they took very quickly, but started with the we need 20. I was content with a couple, but when this started I politely declined. However, they started to raise their voices, so I raised mine. I made sure the pilgrims coming up behind us heard us. The kids asked why I gave them anything ... I was feeling generous until... I did not think about it again until I read this post. I didn't want my street attitude to be on display on the Camino. So they took me for a couple of euro, they need it more than I do. Outside Sarria on May 25, 2017.

 

[dreamwalker]

West of Sarria in October of 2014 my husband & I came across 2 young women with a clip board asking for donations for the blind. It was obvious to me this was a scam. I stopped my husband from writing down our address/info on the sheet attached and told him this was a scam. They pretending not to speak much English and didn't seem that fazed that I'd told my husband to stop writing on the sheet, as this was a scam. The red flag that clued me in was my one look at the sheet attached to the clipboard. So unprofessional that a child could have written it. They both just smiled and slowly walked away. We were in a location that was wide open and it was just the 2 of us alone on the path when they seemed to come out of nowhere.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I saw two young women with clipboards this past May on the Camino Frances, too. They were collecting for the deaf and appeared to be deaf themselves. I was hot, tired and exhausted so didn't feel like stopping to dig in my fanny pack for money while juggling hiking poles. I just shook my head No and kept walking. I did feel kind of guilty to brush them off so quickly if they were legitimate, but now I'm glad I did after hearing all these reports.

I was approached by two different scams while in Paris a few years ago, which I later read about on the internet. One was "the string game" scam, the other was "the brass ring" scam. I'm usually pretty gullible, but luckily I was traveling with my son, who was fully aware of these scamming techniques ahead of time.

 

[Saint Mike II]

As two of us left Sarria on 30th June we were approached by a couple of girls in a field purporting to be collecting for a new school for deaf children. We signed our names on their sheet, handed over a donation of 10 euro and went on our way as the girls extracted further donation from another pilgrim.
As I walked I wondered about this event and as I think on it I come to the conclusion that we were conned. Oh well. No harm done !

Yes you were conned. I was approached by a similar group about 3 or 5 km east of Sarria. I saw them about 200 metres ahead so determined to ignore them and walked quite determinely through them, much to their dismay!!

 

[Jersey]

So, I'm thinking I'd hit them with some of the alphabet in sign language, courtesy of a speech pathologist I once dated (don't ask, it's not a pretty story). If they can't respond in sign language (not that most of us would know anyhow) just walk away. Then again, what's a cople of Euros?

Next year my daughter might be walking with me, that or hanging out on the beach while I walk lol
Anyway, she is a special education teacher and fluent in sign language.
Hopefully we run into them

 

[alhartman]

I wish all pilgrims were as generous at the donativo albergue--even without the theatre.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Well, Spain has not only many spoken languages, but also many sign languages. Better start practicing!

 

[Jersey]

Well, Spain has not only many spoken languages, but also many sign languages. Better start practicing!

Than better only to learn one word in every language. No

 

[fraluchi]

When the request was made to me, I simply asked to see their official identification first. They quickly turned away. Lesson learned.

 

[Jersey]

Growing up in a large city and spending the last 56 years living next to New York City I'm a little naive as to how people fall for these scams.
My advice is to give no one you are not positive about any money.
When you get home & maybe feel guilty?
Write a check to your hometown foodbank or a charity you trust.

 

[nycwalking]

NYC & Los Angeles subways, streets, malls, have so many cons: deaf, blind, homeless, school fund-raising projects, and every now and again, someone says, they have no fund and just want money. Some are legit, but those are few and far between.
On camino two in 2001, I met Heidi 61 years from Austria whose pack was stolen outside albergue in Pamplona. By Logrono she'd reached enlightenment partially via alcohol. She realized she'd been a robber on the camino in a previous life and karma had found her.
These young ladies and cohorts better watch out.

 

[JabbaPapa]

NYC & Los Angeles subways, streets, malls, have so many cons: deaf, blind, homeless, school fund-raising projects, and every now and again, someone says, they have no fund and just want money. Some are legit, but those are few and far between.

But the sad truth is that the % proportion of those in genuine need is increasing.

The scammers are one thing, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to tell the difference, if there even is one any more, between those begging (simply, without trying to con you) on a daily basis as a main source of revenue, and those needing to resort to it from time to time from not quite sufficient regular resources. There are people begging today who even ten years ago would never have dreamed of it. Those who are forced into it as a daily activity by circumstance or by administrative rejection are not quite the same as the typical professional beggars used to be last century, though these too still exist.

 

[VNwalking]

I wonder just how desperate they are, and if anyone out there is trying to help them.

The girl crying in the rain in the late night streets of Santiago, Paris or London may well have a specific story to tell but is likely to be short of expectations and just scared to go home.

There are people begging today who even ten years ago would never have dreamed of it. Those who are forced into it as a daily activity by circumstance or by administrative rejection are not quite the same as the typical professional beggars used to be last century, though these too still exist.

Exactly.

I wish all pilgrims were as generous at the donativo albergue--even without the theatre.

Off topic, but THAT is a very good wish! Please pay it forward, everyone.

 

[nycwalking]

But the sad truth is that the % proportion of those in genuine need is increasing.

The scammers are one thing, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to tell the difference, if there even is one any more, between those begging (simply, without trying to con you) on a daily basis as a main source of revenue, and those needing to resort to it from time to time from not quite sufficient regular resources. There are people begging today who even ten years ago would never have dreamed of it. Those who are forced into it as a daily activity by circumstance or by administrative rejection are not quite the same as the typical professional beggars used to be last century, though these too still exist.

And, that is the sad truth!

 

[Jeff Crawley]

So, I'm thinking I'd hit them with some of the alphabet in sign language, courtesy of a speech pathologist I once dated (don't ask, it's not a pretty story). If they can't respond in sign language (not that most of us would know anyhow) just walk away. Then again, what's a cople of Euros?

They are neither hearing nor speech impaired. Saw them being briefed in a cafe - they speak perfectly well when not "begging"

 

[Jeff Crawley]

Obviously they were eating pretty good.

Travelling well too, high end VW Golf last year!

 

[Jeff Crawley]

Well, Spain has not only many spoken languages, but also many sign languages. Better start practicing!

The official, Castilliano alphabet is pretty much the same as ASL IIRC plus some specials like ñ obviously.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

The official, Castilliano alphabet is pretty much the same as ASL IIRC plus some specials like ñ obviously.

Well, last time I checked, sign language is not just about breaking down a word into letters. When it comes to words, not spelling, Wiki says it is most propobably an isolate.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Sign_Language

 

[jennysa]

five years later, and they are still operating the area. i even saw them, or their gang, in SdC a couple weeks ago, and as far back as Biduedo (near O Cebreiro) once...

photo is from last year, being stopped by the guardia civil (police) near Sarria. no arrest made and they were told to move on; which they did, only to resurface the following day

pain in the bum and not nice people

View attachment 34741

I cannot believe that they are still operating on the Camino and still getting away with it. I encountered them outside Villa Franca del Bierzos in 2011. They obviously move around.

 

[t2andreo]

Just as an FYI, these same people, actually members of an extended family living in a nice home in the Santiago suburbs, do the same scam in Santiago. Over five years and some 12 trips to Santiago, I have observed the same faces appearing anywhere from Sarria to Santiago.

For the record, none of these folks are actually hearing impaired. IMHO it is shameful to pretend to have a disability that, in doing so, mocks people who DO have this issue to contend with. But, it is what it is.

Over the years, I have asked regularly appearing "buskers" (street performers) across Santiago to tell me about those folks. They have told me far more than I am willing to write here. So, I will describe the symptoms without naming the condition...

Within Santiago, the family members rotate "assignments" and positions around the Cathedral on all sides about every two-hours daily, from approximately 0900 to 1700. The next time you are there, pay close attention to each person. You CAN see the familial resemblance.

However, asking, nay, pan-handling for money is still legal there. If you are daft enough to fall for the con, they are clever enough to accept your "gift."

As many others have noted, and in several threads on this and related cons, truly needy people in Spain, and across most of the EU, have government-provided services and places they can go to for help. I also note, that, most of this extended family wears nicer branded clothing than me, and none appear sick or emaciated.

Very few people in Spain actually need to pan-handle for money. Just bear this in mind. I am NOT, REPEAT NOT suggesting reining in charity. But, please, do reserve true charity for truly needy people.

I hope this helps.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

One thing I do to alliviate my guilt for not giving to individuals on the street (even if I still do ot at times after stopping to chat) is to make a substancial donation to rwcognised charities that help people living on the street, or a pay check away from it.

There are charities that also help such people in Spain, and if you feel bad not giving because you think you may be getting conned, think of sending a donation to some of these organisations.

The monastery in Alcuezar on VDLP comes to mind. Monks looking after an important number of a ill elderly men who have been basically been abandonned by their family, or no longer have one.

http://caminodesantiago.consumer.es...ncia-de-los-esclavos-de-maria-y-de-los-pobres

You can then walk in peace, and mean it when you say "I've already given".

 

[Katherine Fugate]

Just as an FYI, these same people, actually members of an extended family living in a nice home in the Santiago suburbs, do the same scam in Santiago. Over five years and some 12 trips to Santiago, I have observed the same faces appearing anywhere from Sarria to Santiago.

For the record, none of these folks are actually hearing impaired. IMHO it is shameful to pretend to have a disability that, in doing so, mocks people who DO have this issue to contend with. But, it is what it is.

Over the years, I have asked regularly appearing "buskers" (street performers) across Santiago to tell me about those folks. They have told me far more than I am willing to write here. So, I will describe the symptoms without naming the condition...

Within Santiago, the family members rotate "assignments" and positions around the Cathedral on all sides about every two-hours daily, from approximately 0900 to 1700. The next time you are there, pay close attention to each person. You CAN see the familial resemblance.

However, asking, nay, pan-handling for money is still legal there. If you are daft enough to fall for the con, they are clever enough to accept your "gift."

As many others have noted, and in several threads on this and related cons, truly needy people in Spain, and across most of the EU, have government-provided services and places they can go to for help. I also note, that, most of this extended family wears nicer branded clothing than me, and none appear sick or emaciated.

Very few people in Spain actually need to pan-handle for money. Just bear this in mind. I am NOT, REPEAT NOT suggesting reining in charity. But, please, do reserve true charity for truly needy people.

I hope this helps.

Were you also able to ascertain anything about the 2 young women on their knees, head bowed, holding a paper cup? After we completed our Camino we remained in Santiago for 3 days and the same 2 young women alternated postings either just before the final (often-bagpipes/music) tunnel to the Cathedral itself or near the Parador side street after the tunnel. They never move, just holding out an empty cup. Having lived in Paris, I became very aware of the clipboard scams (usually outside the Louvre, Tuileres, or any high tourist traffic spot) and the brass ring (drop a wedding ring at your feet, pick it up, say you dropped this, kindly give it to a surprised you, who protests, not mine, then no, keep it, and then ask for money for it). I n Paris, I often quietly stood between a live scam and the tourist and the scammer would very quickly walk away and a tourist would be grateful. I said the same thing - you know you have a good heart, that's a gift to be reminded of, but give directly to a charity you support. Anyway, the motionless begging girls with single paper cup is a look common on Champs-Elysees as well. It is interesting how similar Spain/France are whereas in America we have a whole other set of scams going on. End of the day though their karma shows a deep sense of inner lack to feek they must take from others to fill that hole and they also live in a world of distrust whereas the givers karma isn't one of being duped but of wanting to give and make the world a better place. In that regard, it all sorts itself out.

 

[t2andreo]

As I said above, and at the risk of violating my current, "double-secret probation" status on the forum, as a consequence of my US First Amendment-based plain speaking, I said as much as I dare to above. I try to be VERY circumspect now. I am learning over the years to take a more "enlightened" stance...

However, I will tell you that YES, my comments DO include the people you refer to around the Cathedral. There appear to me, to be four-generations of relatives working for the "family business."

They have been there like clockwork every day I have also been at Santiago over the past five-years. I have watched the teens grow up, and in the case of one young lady, continue doing her thing whilst sporting a growing pregnancy. She delivered a healthy baby last year (2016). The next time I was there, a few months later, she was back at it, using the baby as a prop. However, I did not see the infant the last time I was there, in May 2017.

BTW, these men and women DO move, about every two-to-three hours, they rotate positions. Only pilgrims, like me, who spend an extended period of time in Santiago whenever possible can observe the patterns and group / family affiliation.

What changes during the summer months is that their younger children, off from school for the summer, augment the group's income by maintaining the deaf-mute scam from Sarria in to Santiago. Watch long enough, and you WILL see them around the Cathedral at Santiago, especially during the summer months, and on weekends when Santiago is chock-a-block with tourists AND pilgrims. I believe the sea-going term would be "all hands to the pumps..."

The pilgrim who arrives today and who is gone in 36-hours is not likely to make the connection. THAT is the basis of the scam. If you are not there long enough to recognize he players and the rotation pattern, you are at their convenience.

And, again at the risk of catching the evil eye from a moderator, THAT is all I should say on this topic.

Finally, and just for the record, and to rebut those who may think me personally uncharitable, I am not. Those who know me will tell you that I am one of the most generous folks around. I am presently in the process of clearing my walk-in closet and packed away storage of all Camino-capable and casual clothing that is excess to needs in my forever home in Southern Florida. This has been going on for some months now. Rather than donating it locally, if the items could conceivably be used by a pilgrim, I lug it to Santiago for direct donation at the Pilgrim House. If I have to pay to check a second piece of luggage so be it. Clothing and footwear goes to Santiago. Non-clothing Camino-capable gear goes to my local APOC chapter.

We should be generous and charitable to those in need...in true need.

Caveat Emptor folks!

 

[Katherine Fugate]

I loved your answer and you have quite a way with words!!! I believe most everyone here is charitable and kind, wanting to give. To me, the thread has a greater awareness of where and to whom to give so your gift has the most impact and meaning based on your intention.

I too dropped off all I no longer needed at Pilgrim House, finding the donation of small unused things (platypus, microfiber towel, soaps, hydration packets) rather emotional, knowing a pilgrim will use them, then had my laundry done and often hung around just to maintain the Camino spirit. It's a lovely place.

 

[JabbaPapa]

However, I will tell you that YES, my comments DO include the people you refer to around the Cathedral. There appear to me, to be four-generations of relatives working for the "family business."

They have been there like clockwork every day I have also been at Santiago over the past five-years. I have watched the teens grow up, and in the case of one young lady, continue doing her thing whilst sporting a growing pregnancy. She delivered a healthy baby last year (2016). The next time I was there, a few months later, she was back at it, using the baby as a prop. However, I did not see the infant the last time I was there, in May 2017.

BTW, these men and women DO move, about every two-to-three hours, they rotate positions. Only pilgrims, like me, who spend an extended period of time in Santiago whenever possible can observe the patterns and group / family affiliation.

Right, then I know now who you're all talking about.

The pilgrim who arrives today and who is gone in 36-hours is not likely to make the connection. THAT is the basis of the scam. If you are not there long enough to recognize he players and the rotation pattern, you are at their convenience.

Well, there are similar families operating 'round where I live, and one does after a while develop an eye for the "type". Ours tend to prefer Mercedes-Benz BTW.

I actually spotted the Santiago family instantly last time I was there, in 2014, as well as their position rotation scheme, the family resemblance, and etc.

 

[SabsP]

Gang-masters will usually set a 'target' for daily earnings. Violence, or the threat of derogation to another income stream such as prostitution or drug-trafficking are the usual incentives. The girl crying in the rain in the late night streets of Santiago, Paris or London may well have a specific story to tell but is likely to be short of expectations and just scared to go home.

Indeed I don't think we even know 10 percent of the sadness that is going on. It is a parallel universe really.
Thank you Tincatinker for this post.

 

[VNwalking]

Indeed Sabine.
We are fortunate indeed. From our relatively secure seats it's so easy to judge but, really...what do we know?

 

[Gerhard58]

I have also experienced these scammers that everyone is talking about about but fortunately coming from the country which are so full of scams I did not give them a cent because I realised immediately that these people were not truthful

 

[Anniesantiago]

Although I agree with SYates, we have posted warning after warning about these girls - hopefully people will pass the word.
They do move around, also.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Although I agree with SYates, we have posted warning after warning about these girls - hopefully people will pass the word.
They do move around, also.

Another topic for the FAQ Guide we should be writing up...

 

[Karen Cap]

As two of us left Sarria on 30th June we were approached by a couple of girls in a field purporting to be collecting for a new school for deaf children. We signed our names on their sheet, handed over a donation of 10 euro and went on our way as the girls extracted further donation from another pilgrim.
As I walked I wondered about this event and as I think on it I come to the conclusion that we were conned. Oh well. No harm done !

I got conned by those young women last September.

 

[Deleted member 67338]

I stole their pen

 

[Bob from L.A. !]

I've seen the same girls 3 times in the last 6 years and I remind them I didn't donate last time and I am not going to donate this time..............

 

[Icacos]

I stole their pen

I hope that was by accident, otherwise .......... bad karma

 

[JabbaPapa]

I hope that was by accident, otherwise .......... bad karma

His bad karma ? ... or theirs ?

 

[Icacos]

His bad karma ? ... or theirs ?

Good point!

 

[Icacos]

Just before Santiago we came across an extremely bedraggled looking being sitting on the side of the path. I was sufficiently moved by his appearance that I gave him a few Euro. Only afterwards did it occur to me that he seemed healthy enough and not much in need of food. I think I was conned.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Just before Santiago we came across an extremely bedraggled looking being sitting on the side of the path. I was sufficiently moved by his appearance that I gave him a few Euro. Only afterwards did it occur to me that he seemed healthy enough and not much in need of food. I think I was conned.

One would hope that financial destitution in Western Europe would not lead to an emaciated appearance from starvation ...

 

[Kieran Kenneally]

These con artists prey on the good nature of Peregrinos it's like they have a selective captive audience to target (shooting fish in a barrel comes to mind). This goes on in every country in the world it's professional begging and those doing it make a very comfortable living from it. Why are the Civil Guardia not arresting them if they are not legit and don't have a permit to request donations? I know a lot of people fall through the cracks in society and those receive my sympathy and help when I donate regularly through legitimate agencies like the St Vincent de Paul.

 

[Deleted member 43780]

Hello, you can only be conned if you let yourself be conned.

I ignore anyone who approaches me for money, sign this or that petition, lost ring found on the street, money checkers (by phony police),...on and on and on.....

Keep walking. Don't give them the time of the day. I don't even look at them.

Keep wallet in proper safe place. Never flash money. Or leave valuables laying out in A'berg.

Think most on here get the message.... don't let yourself be set up.

At 70+ years old I have never been conned, mugged, pick pocketed, etc. Grew up in Spain.
Travelled the world over.
My dad taught my brother and I to be street smart. To be responsible for our own actions, or lack of action. Not to blame on others our short comings.
Be respectful and responsible.
Seems these basic rules of life are missing from people today.

Some of the problems I read on here are self made.

 

[JabbaPapa]

These con artists prey on the good nature of Peregrinos it's like they have a selective captive audience to target (shooting fish in a barrel comes to mind). This goes on in every country in the world it's professional begging and those doing it make a very comfortable living from it. Why are the Civil Guardia not arresting them if they are not legit and don't have a permit to request donations? I know a lot of people fall through the cracks in society and those receive my sympathy and help when I donate regularly through legitimate agencies like the St Vincent de Paul.

Sadly, many people are rejected from the charity of such organisations.

Charity is at its purest when it is at its closest -- nobody needs a "permit" to request "donations", in fact should such things exist, then only the professional beggars would be allowed. The Guardia Civil does not arrest people simply because they may happen to disturb you personally.

You falsely suggest that there might need to be some sort of license to beg -- it is not illegal to request help from others.

 

[Kieran Kenneally]

JappaPappa I think you missed my point. The thread was about two girls a family who have a scam going and by the look of it has been going on for years they claim to e collecting for some deaf association and for that a permit is required at least in Ireland it is. That was my reference to the Civil Guardia this should be checked.
Begging has become a scourge in modern society or should I say professional begging and so legitimate people lose out unfortunately. I have seen programmes where it has become a multi national business with some where funds are sent home to build palatial homes and please don't tell me that this is legit.

 

[JabbaPapa]

JappaPappa I think you missed my point. The thread was about two girls a family who have a scam going and by the look of it has been going on for years they claim to e collecting for some deaf association and for that a permit is required at least in Ireland it is. That was my reference to the Civil Guardia this should be checked.
Begging has become a scourge in modern society or should I say professional begging and so legitimate people lose out unfortunately. I have seen programmes where it has become a multi national business with some where funds are sent home to build palatial homes and please don't tell me that this is legit.

I didn't miss the point -- indeed I'm quite aware of the existence of beggar communities of luxury homes -- but nothing in this could justify throwing the baby of need out with the bathwater of scam.

 

[Icacos]

Hello, you can only be conned if you let yourself be conned.

I ignore anyone who approaches me for money, sign this or that petition, lost ring found on the street, money checkers (by phony police),...on and on and on.....

Keep walking. Don't give them the time of the day. I don't even look at them.

Keep wallet in proper safe place. Never flash money. Or leave valuables laying out in A'berg.

Think most on here get the message.... don't let yourself be set up.

At 70+ years old I have never been conned, mugged, pick pocketed, etc. Grew up in Spain.
Travelled the world over.
My dad taught my brother and I to be street smart. To be responsible for our own actions, or lack of action. Not to blame on others our short comings.
Be respectful and responsible.
Seems these basic rules of life are missing from people today.

Some of the problems I read on here are self made.

You raise some valid points. I disagree with you on more than one, the main one being that you advocate being "respectful" yet with regards to "anyone who approaches me for money, sign this or that petition, lost ring found on the street, money checkers (by phony police),...on and on and on.....," you say, "I don't even look at them." Are you including here the person who might be genuinely down on his luck and in need of a handout? I believe it was one of our forum members who, harkening back to the time when he was in dire financial straits, said that the most hurtful thing about being in need, was being ignored. I'm curious, because I think ignoring someone begging / panhandling on the streets is not really being respectful of that person. There must be a middle ground here.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

The ladies were just after Barbarelo (sp?) after Sarria this morning. I mentioned the Guardia Civil - had a strange effect

What effect?

 

[donalomahony]

What effect?

... moved away at speed...

 

[Kieran Kenneally]

... moved away at speed...

Were they booked for speeding cos they haven't got them for anything else

 

[donalomahony]

Off topic, but a ferocious thunderstorm lasting about 30 minutes in Portomarin this afternoon has us all moving at speed to find shelter....

 

[JabbaPapa]

You raise some valid points. I disagree with you on more than one, the main one being that you advocate being "respectful" yet with regards to "anyone who approaches me for money, sign this or that petition, lost ring found on the street, money checkers (by phony police),...on and on and on.....," you say, "I don't even look at them." Are you including here the person who might be genuinely down on his luck and in need of a handout? I believe it was one of our forum members who, harkening back to the time when he was in dire financial straits, said that the most hurtful thing about being in need, was being ignored. I'm curious, because I think ignoring someone begging / panhandling on the streets is not really being respectful of that person. There must be a middle ground here.

hmmm, well just speaking from personal experience, whenever I've needed to ask for help, I've always made sure that ignoring me is option B, but well, I'm a passive-aggressive.

Begging creates a disrespect of oneself, not of others -- gratuitous financial assistance is not a duty of random passers-by.

I am grateful if people help, I'm also grateful when they don't.

God's Love is not found in such possessions.

 

[Kieran Kenneally]

Off topic, but a ferocious thunderstorm lasting about 30 minutes in Portomarin this afternoon has us all moving at speed to find shelter....

Never rains but it pours Donal

 

[Icacos]

-- gratuitous financial assistance is not a duty of random passers-by.

Never said it was. One can acknowledge another's existence by a mere smile or a nod.

I think God's love can be found there.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Never said it was. One can acknowledge another's existence by a mere smile or a nod.

I am always pleased by a no with such generosity in the spirit.

 

[Gerhard58]

I really don't know why so many pilgrims are so defensive of any criticism of the Camino !!!! please we are all adults and we all have our own opinions , so I really do not know why some people think because the have done a Camino or two, any other comments are noir valid and it seems to be condemned to hell. It seems to me that it is only foreignersc who seem to be the total Defenders of the positives and negatives of this great Walk!! . I really don't see any spaniards expressing anything so I don't really know what is the purpose of having these permanent arguments of whether you like the Camino or not. It is a personal choice

I have also done the Camino ! I have walkjed every inch of the 800 km from St Jean and I really don't mind you people who criticize the Camino. I don't know why people are so critical or cynical about any criticism of the Camino. We are all adults, we paid Our Own Way !!! I really I don't know why there is always some of these so-called do-gooders ( think that because they've also done two or three caminos) they have the last say in whatever is to say about this Walk !!
please stop this nonsense and concentrate on the Camino and not about your personal opinions and feelings!!

 

[Marc S.]

please stop this nonsense and concentrate on the Camino and not about your personal opinions and feelings!!

Risking to be a "so-called do-gooder wanting to have the last say", but I guess the forum would be a boring place if people stopped expressing their personal opinions and feelings. And by the way, it seems to me you are expressing a lot of opinions, before calling upon others to "stop this nonsense". Ultreya !

 

[Deleted member 67185]

You raise some valid points. I disagree with you on more than one, the main one being that you advocate being "respectful" yet with regards to "anyone who approaches me for money, sign this or that petition, lost ring found on the street, money checkers (by phony police),...on and on and on.....," you say, "I don't even look at them." Are you including here the person who might be genuinely down on his luck and in need of a handout? I believe it was one of our forum members who, harkening back to the time when he was in dire financial straits, said that the most hurtful thing about being in need, was being ignored. I'm curious, because I think ignoring someone begging / panhandling on the streets is not really being respectful of that person. There must be a middle ground here.

For me, here at home, the middle ground is to donate to the shelters which serve the homeless and needy. I never give money to those who panhandle, but I have purchased food and given it to those I have met who are hungry. Volunteering at homeless ministries is another way of my reaching the middle ground. I carry business cards with me which contain addresses and phone numbers of these ministries to give to homeless folks and panhandlers i encounter.

 

[Icacos]

I really don't know why so many pilgrims are so defensive of any criticism of the Camino !!!! please we are all adults and we all have our own opinions , so I really do not know why some people think because the have done a Camino or two, any other comments are noir valid and it seems to be condemned to hell. It seems to me that it is only foreignersc who seem to be the total Defenders of the positives and negatives of this great Walk!! . I really don't see any spaniards expressing anything so I don't really know what is the purpose of having these permanent arguments of whether you like the Camino or not. It is a personal choice

I have also done the Camino ! I have walkjed every inch of the 800 km from St Jean and I really don't mind you people who criticize the Camino. I don't know why people are so critical or cynical about any criticism of the Camino. We are all adults, we paid Our Own Way !!! I really I don't know why there is always some of these so-called do-gooders ( think that because they've also done two or three caminos) they have the last say in whatever is to say about this Walk !!
please stop this nonsense and concentrate on the Camino and not about your personal opinions and feelings!!

Whoa...... I did say on another thread that we should all be able to rant once in a while, but.......... from where did this come? ....... Wrong thread??

I hope you are feeling better.

 

[Icacos]

For me, here at home, the middle ground is to donate to the shelters which serve the homeless and needy. I never give money to those who panhandle, but I have purchased food and given it to those I have met who are hungry. Volunteering at homeless ministries is another way of my reaching the middle ground. I carry business cards with me which contain addresses and phone numbers of these ministries to give to homeless folks and panhandlers i encounter.

And thank you for doing this.

 

[Tincatinker]

Play nicely now. Or perhaps I'll rephrase that as - members are asked to avoid personal remarks or comments that might be interpreted as a personal criticism of another member.

There are people out there who would like some of your money whether you are willing to share it or not. Not all of them are global corporations.

 

[SabsP]

I found this older thread....I loved some of the posts there....

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/was-i-conned-or-what.43592/

 

[JabbaPapa]

For me, here at home, the middle ground is to donate to the shelters which serve the homeless and needy. I never give money to those who panhandle, but I have purchased food and given it to those I have met who are hungry. Volunteering at homeless ministries is another way of my reaching the middle ground. I carry business cards with me which contain addresses and phone numbers of these ministries to give to homeless folks and panhandlers i encounter.

Sadly, there is a degree of corruption in such charities, whereby not all that you give to them will get into the hands of the needy.

The Catholic Ideal of Charity is centred on yourself and on those immediately surrounding you -- those you can see, and talk to, and touch. Including yourself. To provide also for those who are far away is certainly a virtue, but if you're not doing the first it's a bit of an empty one.

Look to your surroundings to learn who is truly in need or just in some temporary crisis, and who is seeking to exploit your good nature. This will be a better solution for this problematic than any ideology.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Sadly, there is a degree of corruption in such charities, whereby not all that you give to them will get into the hands of the needy.

The Catholic Ideal of Charity is centred on yourself and on those immediately surrounding you -- those you can see, and talk to, and touch. Including yourself. To provide also for those who are far away is certainly a virtue, but if you're not doing the first it's a bit of an empty one.

Look to your surroundings to learn who is truly in need or just in some temporary crisis, and who is seeking to exploit your good nature. This will be a better solution for this problematic than any ideology.

Well stated. I have seen the corruption in various 501c3 charities before. It is appalling, and worth spending the time to determine whether a charity one wishes to support is worthy of such support.

 

[Kieran Kenneally]

Beggars belief

 

[hotelmedicis]

Yes, I saw these girls too, just after Sarria in May 2017. They were Romanian Gypsies, a couple of them had gold teeth. We have this scam in Paris so I knew exactly what it was. They probably make hundreds of euros a day doing this.

 

[Kieran Kenneally]

So it begs the question why has this illegal behaviour not been stopped clearly its taking money under false pretenses ?

 

[JabbaPapa]

So it begs the question why has this illegal behaviour not been stopped clearly its taking money under false pretenses ?

Because it isn't illegal to ask somebody for some money, nor is it illegal to lie to a stranger in a public place.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

So it begs the question why has this illegal behaviour not been stopped clearly its taking money under false pretenses ?

Because as annoying as it may be to you, begging for money is not illegal. It may be dishonnest, but as long as you hand over the miney without being coerced to do it while being threatened it is not illegal.

 

[Kieran Kenneally]

But they are using the ploy of collecting for a bogus cause taking names etc they must have different rules in Spain because that is definitely illegal in Ireland.

 

[Bradypus]

But they are using the ploy of collecting for a bogus cause taking names etc they must have different rules in Spain because that is definitely illegal in Ireland.

I do not know what the legal situation is in Spain. I live in the UK. I would not automatically assume that the same laws would apply in another country.

 

[Kieran Kenneally]

This discussion could go on forever you reap what you sow

 

[SabsP]

And it is not unimportant to know that it is only a very small part of the Roma ( gipsy community ) that operates as beggars.

The Roma, as a population , has suffered enough throughout the centuries. Just google Roma , suffering, deportation...You will find a lot of reading material.

And by this I do not want to make a political statement , just asking for some common sense...

 

[Deleted member 3000]

But they are using the ploy of collecting for a bogus cause taking names etc they must have different rules in Spain because that is definitely illegal in Ireland.

They do. It is easy to get one's shorts in a bunch when the law in other countries is different. The U.S. and the UK have common law. Spain has statutory law. Enforcement priorities differ as well. It likely violates Spanish law to represent yourself as collecting for a charity when you are not, or even falsely claim you are deaf to solicit a donation, do you honestly expect the police to take action? It would not be unreasonable of the police to expect pilgrims to protect themselves with some healthy skepticism when asked for a donation. How helpless do we really need to be in asking "officials" to protect us?

 

[Kieran Kenneally]

They do. It is easy to get one's shorts in a bunch when the law in other countries is different. The U.S. and the UK have common law. Spain has statutory law. Enforcement priorities differ as well. It likely violates Spanish law to represent yourself as collecting for a charity when you are not, or even falsely claim you are deaf to solicit a donation, do you honestly expect the police to take action? It would not be unreasonable of the police to expect pilgrims to protect themselves with some healthy skepticism when asked for a donation. How helpless do we really need to be in asking "officials" to protect us?

Because not everybody is savvy. Some people may feel intimidated to donate. Are you suggesting we should all flout the law?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Are you suggesting we should all flout the law?

We pretty much do. I was going 36 in a 35 mph zone yesterday.

 

[Kieran Kenneally]

ha

We pretty much do. I was going 36 in a 35 mph zone yesterday.

ha ha good one

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Because not everybody is savvy. Some people may feel intimidated to donate. Are you suggesting we should all flout the law?

Flout the law? Please. Just walk by. These people ate not flouting the law anymmore than anyone begging for money in your hometown.

Me thinks this thread has run its course. Bottom line, they are not deaf, probably make quite a bit of money at this talking advantage of our "pilgrim mindset". Just ignore them. It's what we all do at home after all, including to,those in real need.

 

[Jodean]

The same scam has been in Frankfurt and many other cities in Germany since a very long time. Pick your city in Europe and you will find it happening there too.

A quick, firm, no thank you, and walk on past.

 

[Kieran Kenneally]

I

Flout the law? Please. Just walk by. These people ate not flouting the law anymmore than anyone begging for money in your hometown.

Me thinks this thread has run its course. Bottom line, they are not deaf, probably make quite a bit of money at this talking advantage of our "pilgrim mindset". Just ignore them. It's what we all do at home after all, including to,those in real need.

I agree we could debate the rights and wrongs of this forever it is what it is.

 

[SabsP]

Flout the law? Please. Just walk by. These people ate not flouting the law anymmore than anyone begging for money in your hometown.

Me thinks this thread has run its course. Bottom line, they are not deaf, probably make quite a bit of money at this talking advantage of our "pilgrim mindset". Just ignore them. It's what we all do at home after all, including to,those in real need.

Reminds me when I was visiting the French city of Cahors. I was sitting on an outside terrace. A beggar approached two shopowners and asked them for some small change. One shopowner friendly patted the man on his back and said : " Oui, oui, je connais le truc " or " Yes, yes , I know the trick ". No hard words fell, no money was exchanged. Beggar did not get aggresive and the two shopowners continued their conversation.

 

[MinaKamina]

So it begs the question why has this illegal behaviour not been stopped clearly its taking money under false pretenses ?

A lot of action is being taken in Spain, especially against the maffias that are exploiting the homeless.

In recent years, in the Netherlands the major towns were confronted with gangs exploiting beggars. It was observed that people were brought into town in small vans, and left at various points where they would sit down with a plastic cup in front of them. Official estimate was that one such beggar would 'earn' 100 euros per day, and €35.000 per year.
The town councils took measures to stop this, they have a legal basis to do so.

IMHO when pilgrims say things like the begging person needs it more than me they should ask themselves two things:
- Do I have 100 euros to spend on a daily basis during my pilgrimage?
- Do I want to contribute to, and continue the exploitation of people by gangs?

 

[t2andreo]

JappaPappa I think you missed my point. The thread was about two girls a family who have a scam going and by the look of it has been going on for years they claim to e collecting for some deaf association and for that a permit is required at least in Ireland it is. That was my reference to the Civil Guardia this should be checked.
Begging has become a scourge in modern society or should I say professional begging and so legitimate people lose out unfortunately. I have seen programmes where it has become a multi national business with some where funds are sent home to build palatial homes and please don't tell me that this is legit.

If I might interject... If I recall correctly, in the thread above, one of the commenters stated that when he asked the young ladies for their "official permit," they reacted, got flustered, and turned away from him. Clearly they HEARD him. Demerit earned for breaking role...

The point I would like to make is that, all across Europe, including in Spain, persons who are working (even as a volunteer) for a sanctioned group and who are collecting or soliciting donations, USUALLY have official documentation stating they are an employee of that group.

Thus, someone soliciting donations on behalf of a national society to aid any disabled, disadvantaged, or needy group, can be expected to be wearing an ID card on a lanyard, or have a laminated card quick-to-hand.

Am I missing something? I have traveled all over Europe for decades. Whenever folks engage me on a street in a city or town to sign a petition or donate to some cause, they usually always are wearing some "official" ID, typically on a lanyard around their neck. Sometimes, they are wearing or carrying clearly identifiable signage or logo'ed apparel that connects them to a known group or organization like the Red Cross, for example.

My empirical observation over the decades is that it is only the undocumented pan handlers or beggars who lack this identification.

So, just because it remains legal in, most of the world, to "beg," it is also legal and permissible to decline to participate, unless the person is clearly affiliated with a known, reputable organization.

Charity is a necessary and is a key part of our Judeo-Christian based civilized society. Do not let the "off-license folks" spoil it for the other groups. Just walk away...

I hope this helps.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

...to ask the pilgrims for money in the name of a well-known charity.

That is a very different sitation and one that gets me very angry. If there is ine thing that gets drilled into anyone working in fundraising for charities, as I do, it's ethics. Oh the humber of times I had to inform my own board of trustees that "no" because it's not ethical, not in line with proper accounting guidelines for charities, what would people say if this made it to the papers, etc. So having people use a charity's name to steal gets my blood boiling.

One day I walked past a man asking for money outside a hospital for some unknown, though registered, charity. He was asking for "money for the sick children". As I ignipored me he said soemthing along the lines of "you rich heatless people who won't help,sick children". Ohhhh.... I turned around and I swear he was hoping he had never been born.

Gave him a loud talk about the damage he was causing all and any well intented charity by his disrespectful behaviour, that he had no right to juge, far less insult, those who did not drop money in his jar, that he had no idea of people's financial situation nor charitable contributions. I asked him for his id tying him to his employer or charity he was volunteering for. He wouldn't show it to be, but as he was wearing a best with the logo .... I gave them a call and told them what he was up to.

I bet you that when he went back into the charity that was the second time that day he wished he had not been born.

 

[Ralph Keith Redhead]

As two of us left Sarria on 30th June we were approached by a couple of girls in a field purporting to be collecting for a new school for deaf children. We signed our names on their sheet, handed over a donation of 10 euro and went on our way as the girls extracted further donation from another pilgrim.
As I walked I wondered about this event and as I think on it I come to the conclusion that we were conned. Oh well. No harm done !

Hi Peter - In Santiago last June, outside the Cathedral, I saw two such young women being escorted to the local police station... and the next day the same women were back doing the same. I also witnessed a local middle-aged guy very loudly complainning to two 'deaf and dumb' charity collectors - they gave as good as he was giving them, and I don't think they'd experienced a sudden, miraculous cure for their 'ailment'. From what I saw, the 'charity' collectors are unstoppable, tenascious and no matter what locals or police say or do, they will always be a special part of our Camino ;-) I can only smile at them and wish them a 'good day', when I see them - sometimes they smile back