Time for more compostela type certificates?

[Camino Chrissy]

To return to the original theme of this thread: souvenir collectors are welcome to a Tinker Bell. Awarded to any that survive our hospitality. If only so that we can hear you coming next time…

@Tincatinker, your posts are often refreshing to me and and you sometimes lighten up the serious side, which I can appreciate.

 

[dick bird]

We are talking at cross purposes here, whether deliberately or not, I shan´t comment. There are three aspects of the camino to consider and we need to be clear which one we are discussing:

1. The actual physical paths, tracks and roads that pilgrims to Camino de Santiago follow. This website might be of interest with respect to this https://opinionjuridica.blog/2021/1...troversia-respecto-a-la-titularidad-de-estos/
2. The officially recognised routes (by the civil and ecclesiastical authorities) the Camino follows along these paths tracks and roads to reach Santiago cathedral according to Ley 5/2016 de 4 de mayo, del patrimonio cultural de Galicia, (with thanks to @dougfitz . Similar rules and definitions are applied by in the other autonomous regions, France and UNESCO
3. The traditional practice of pilgrimage to Santiago.

Numbers 1 & 2 may be changed but not by us. Number 3, even if shared, is entirely a matter of personal choice and opinion.

Maybe Antonio Machado was right ¨Caminante, no hay camino. El camino se hace por andar¨.

 

[Pilgrim9]

Walking long pilgrimages provides me time to reflect and to differentiate between what is important, and what is not, and to ensure that I attend to the important things. That in turn provides me some serenity.

It turns out that some things, such as other people's opinions about my opinions, are unimportant. It does not matter.

So, why argue about other people's opinions?

Is all the disputatious controversy in this thread helpful?

 

[henrythedog]

So, why argue about other people's opinions?

It passes the time whilst not walking oneself.

The participants in this exchange might, on a good day, agree that the others are often right even if, on this occasion, they are clearly wrong.

I often learn something interesting on here. Sometimes I learn two mutually conflicting things, which is either two things or nothing.

 

[isawtman]

C Clearly wrote:


isawtman responded:


I'm having a heard time seeing how an alternative path after Sarria removes toilet paper from the path when no other alternative route seems to do so. Similarly how an alternative path will open churches or change the price of luggage transfer. Not getting into how it is going to change the natural dispositions of pilgrims.

But I am sure the possibility exists I am missing something crucial that would enable it to do so.

Okay, if there is less people hiking a certain route, there are less people going to the bathroom on a certain route. As far as open churches and price of luggage transfer, that's not a major concern to many pilgrims.

 

[JabbaPapa]

@JabbaPapa, I addressed this last year, and you participated in the discussion. You might remember that I did point out that the Pilgrim Office itself acknowledges that the 'official routes' are those contained in Ley 5/2016 de 4 de mayo, del patrimonio cultural de Galicia, which provides the legal framework for the protection many things including the Camino routes. You will find two threads in which this was discussed here and here.

And are you forgetting my own contributions to those threads ? And that I disagreed with the more restrictive interpretations of those laws, as if they somehow "defined" the pilgrimage and the Ways of Saint James in themselves ?

I think that you are being side-tracked in your own misunderstanding of the relationship between the cathedral sanctioned routes and Galician heritage laws.

No I am not, and I am "misunderstanding" nothing.

The law itself defines the Camino as being ALL traditional and historic routes to the Cathedral, whilst limiting the official recognition of such routes by the State in cases where they may start from within the 100K radius. Furthermore, the law is clear that those traditional routes not officially recognised by the State but nevertheless historically extant do belong overall to the Camino de Santiago as a legal entity.

The most important effects of the law are to define how and where State and Regional funds can and sometimes must be allocated for the promotion and maintenance of the officially recognised routes, and within Galicia it currently prevents "official" State recognition of even historical and traditional routes from villages in Galicia that are closer to the Cathedral than 100K, except that pilgrims walking from their homes and home parishes in those villages along such routes are still, by exception to the typical rules, still eligible for a Compostela, and would not be forced to first walk from their pueblos to Sarria or somewhere -- though if I were a pilgrim from one of those villages, I would make sure to obtain the traditional letter of introduction from my parish priest.

Also, that some tertiary routes leading from people's villages towards more important secondary and primary routes whilst being a part of the Camino cannot in the current state of the law be officially recognised and therefore funded by the State.

The laws do not prevent pilgrimages nor religious recognition of those pilgrimages by the Cathedral including through provision of a Compostela to pilgrims outside of some small number of State-defined "official routes".

 

[JabbaPapa]

Here is the relevant canon law regarding shrines and pilgrimage :

CHAPTER III.

SHRINES

Can. 1230 By the term shrine is understood a church or other sacred place to which numerous members of the faithful make pilgrimage for a special reason of piety, with the approval of the local ordinary.

Can. 1231 For a shrine to be called a national shrine, the conference of bishops must give its approval; for it to be called an international shrine, the approval of the Holy See is required.

Can. 1232 §1. The local ordinary is competent to approve the statutes of a diocesan shrine; the conference of bishops for the statutes of a national shrine; the Holy See alone for the statutes of an international shrine.

§2. The statutes are to determine especially the purpose, the authority of the rector, and the ownership and administration of goods.

Can. 1233 Certain privileges can be granted to shrines whenever local circumstances, the large number of pilgrims, and especially the good of the faithful seem to suggest it.

Can. 1234 §1. At shrines the means of salvation are to be supplied more abundantly to the faithful by the diligent proclamation of the word of God, the suitable promotion of liturgical life especially through the celebration of the Eucharist and of penance, and the cultivation of approved forms of popular piety.

§2. Votive offerings of popular art and piety are to be kept on display in the shrines or nearby places and guarded securely.

 

[David Tallan]

Not being an expert, I can't speak to Canon Law or to the laws of Spain. I wonder if people may be talking across each other here. In another thread, we talked about the different requirements for the Compostela and for the partial or plenary indulgence that can be the reward of a pilgrimage. It is sounding to me that JabbaPapa is talking about pilgrimages and routes more related to the latter, and Doug may be talking about pilgrimages and routes more related to the former.

 

[Robo]

Judging from the number of posts we are getting about the last 100km, it is the biggest issue for a number of pilgrims. What else would be the biggest issue?

Sorry, I just don't have any Big Issues with the last 100 kms.
Or any part of any route.
I set out to enjoy every step of my Caminos and am grateful for just being there.
The Camino just is........why not let it be?
Not everything needs to be fixed.

 

[Bradypus]

The Camino just is........why not let it be?
Not everything needs to be fixed

I'm happy to leave the stages after Sarria to those who want the three-ring-circus peak season experience. Clearly many do! There are plenty of other routes and quieter times for those of us who want them.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

What else would be the biggest issue?

People who make the last 100km a issue time after time

 

[ChrisAP]

I'm sure many of you like me have followed the writing of Anton Pombo, who is currently lecturing in the United States. See this interview: https://www.fundacionjacobea.org/en...pombo-a-reflection-on-the-camino-de-santiago/

While so many of us truly believe there is no right or wrong camino, those of us who have walked the camino when it was less traveled also know that there have been profound changes in the camino infrastructure, all for the better, but also the profile of many walkers. In particular, there has been more and more voices concerned about "the last 100 kilometers" and the near obsession with receiving the compostella.

While there has been talk of increasing the required distance to 200 kms, I personally reject that because many working people in particular do not have the time for a longer walk. I suggest the 100 kms requirment be kept to receive a compostella. Instead, I suggest that just as more and more cities are issuing credentials, more and more cities should also present certificates to those who arrive there. Oviedo has a wonderful Salvadorana for those who walk the Salvador. We received that. We also received a certificate at the Shrine of the Virgen Peregrina in Sahagun after completing the Camino Madrid, which joins the Frances there. And then there is the certificate in Muxia.

Those who walk the Portugues know they will received a certificate at the tourist office in Padron. And when we walked the Ignaziano, we received a certificat in Manresa. I suggest that others cities follow suit, including Burgos and Leon, both of which have marvellous cathedrals that are shrines.

The definition of a pilgrimage is a walk to a shrine. Even Estella, which offers the oldest credencial, has a lovely shrine to the Virgen del Puy. They could also offer a certificate. And Pamplona can offer a certificate for those who walk the Baztan.

Let's be clear: while all roads may lead to Santiago, many who walk only have a week or so to walk. Santiago need not be the only goal.

Just to clarify, there currently is no certificate offered in Pamplona for walking the Camino Baztan: This is from our friends in Estella:

There is no specific certificate for the Baztán route. You can stamp the credential in several places in Pamplona, but you cannot obtain a certificate.

These are some of the places where you can have your credential stamped in Pamplona:
-Pamplona Tourist Office (Calle San Saturnino, 2)
-Ultreia. Pilgrim Welcome Center and Interpretation Center of the Way of Saint James (Calle Mayor, 20)
-Tourist Hostel of the Way of Saint James - Jesús y María (Calle Compañía, 4)
-Diocesan Curia – Archbishop’s Palace (Plaza Santa María la Real, 1)
-Pamplona Cathedral (Calle Curia, s/n)
-Sacristy of the San Lorenzo church (Calle Mayor, 74)
-Caminoteca (Calle Curia, 15) (open seasonally)
-Librería Diocesana, shop (Calle Dormitalería, 1)
-La Tienda del Camino, shop (Calle Mayor, 9)
-María Sagrario Navarro, shop (Plaza Consistorial, 2)

 

[David Tallan]

Just to clarify, there currently is no certificate offered in Pamplona for walking the Camino Baztan: This is from our friends in Estella:

That is perhaps because people walking the Camino Baztan are not traditionally walking to Pamplona so much as walking through Pamplona to Santiago.

All the other certificates (with the exception of the half-way certificate in Sahagun) are for completing a pilgrimage to a particular destination. The Salvadorana being a great example. To get it you depart from the Camino to Santiago and the pilgrimage to the relics of St. James and instead undertake a pilgrimage to the relics of Jesus (the "Salvador"). That's why there is a saying in Spanish that can be loosely translated as "He who visits Santiago and not Oviedo honours the servant and not the Master". It is its own pilgrimage, separate from the one to Santiago. Even the certificate for completing the Camino de Madrid certifies that you have completed the pilgrimage to the relics of the martyr St. Mancio, a pilgrimage established by papal decree in 1564.

 

[isawtman]

Sorry, I just don't have any Big Issues with the last 100 kms.
Or any part of any route.
I set out to enjoy every step of my Caminos and am grateful for just being there.
The Camino just is........why not let it be?
Not everything needs to be fixed.

I don't have any Big Issues with the last 100 km either, but it seems to be
a concern to a lot of people. All the camino forums and facebook pages I visit
have had posts about it.

 

[trecile]

I don't have any Big Issues with the last 100 km either, but it seems to be
a concern to a lot of people. All the camino forums and facebook pages I visit
have had posts about it.

That's because there are people who always want to complain about something!