Time for more compostela type certificates?

[Anthony Rocco]

I'm sure many of you like me have followed the writing of Anton Pombo, who is currently lecturing in the United States. See this interview: https://www.fundacionjacobea.org/en...pombo-a-reflection-on-the-camino-de-santiago/

While so many of us truly believe there is no right or wrong camino, those of us who have walked the camino when it was less traveled also know that there have been profound changes in the camino infrastructure, all for the better, but also the profile of many walkers. In particular, there has been more and more voices concerned about "the last 100 kilometers" and the near obsession with receiving the compostella.

While there has been talk of increasing the required distance to 200 kms, I personally reject that because many working people in particular do not have the time for a longer walk. I suggest the 100 kms requirment be kept to receive a compostella. Instead, I suggest that just as more and more cities are issuing credentials, more and more cities should also present certificates to those who arrive there. Oviedo has a wonderful Salvadorana for those who walk the Salvador. We received that. We also received a certificate at the Shrine of the Virgen Peregrina in Sahagun after completing the Camino Madrid, which joins the Frances there. And then there is the certificate in Muxia.

Those who walk the Portugues know they will received a certificate at the tourist office in Padron. And when we walked the Ignaziano, we received a certificat in Manresa. I suggest that others cities follow suit, including Burgos and Leon, both of which have marvellous cathedrals that are shrines.

The definition of a pilgrimage is a walk to a shrine. Even Estella, which offers the oldest credencial, has a lovely shrine to the Virgen del Puy. They could also offer a certificate. And Pamplona can offer a certificate for those who walk the Baztan.

Let's be clear: while all roads may lead to Santiago, many who walk only have a week or so to walk. Santiago need not be the only goal.

 

[Bradypus]

Or just stop issuing the Compostela and other certificates altogether? Is an endless succession of pieces of paper really necessary? As the pilgrim office no longer takes any active interest in a pilgrim's motives the Compostela no longer really signifies what the text declares in any case.

 

[Former member 104756]

I haven't sought a Compostela or other certificate since 2014 and don't imagine I will do in the future - so it wouldn't matter to me if there were more or fewer, or none - though I can understand that others feel differently. By contrast, like many others, I do treasure my credenciales. They bring back particular memories and they signify 'the journey' which, for me, is more significant than 'the destination'.

 

[jungleboy]

I don’t know, adding more certificates to ‘reward’ those on longer pilgrimages could create the opposite effect: certificate ‘hunters’ could just do the minimum required for a certificate in Burgos or Leon or wherever and then it’s possible that those sections could become more like post-Sarria.

 

[David Tallan]

I don’t know, adding more certificates to ‘reward’ those on longer pilgrimages could create the opposite effect: certificate ‘hunters’ could just do the minimum required for a certificate in Burgos or Leon or wherever and then it’s possible that those sections could become more like post-Sarria.

I'm not sure. I didn't notice any such effect when walking the Camino de Madrid to get the certificate in Sahagun, not when walking towards any of the other certificates he mentions (I came home with 6 certificates after my Camino last summer). God knows "post-Sarria" is the furthest I could imagine from my experience on the Camino de Madrid.

I don't think it is necessarily a bad idea to recognize some of the other locations on Spain with relics that people walk to with certificates.

On the other hand, I tend to think that minimum distances walked should not be a requirement, just an intent to visit the relics. But I don't make the rules.

 

[Waka]

Or just stop issuing the Compostela and other certificates altogether? Is an endless succession of pieces of paper really necessary? As the pilgrim office no longer takes any active interest in a pilgrim's motives the Compostela no longer really signifies what the text declares in any case.

I agree stop issuing certificates. If you are a pilgrim and you're doing the journey for a certificate then I think you're doing the pilgrimage for the wrong reason.
Just my thoughts, pease don't hang me out to dry, or worse still have me cancelled.

 

[dougfitz]

I admit to having difficulty with the development of the argument by the OP, and I am not sure that all of the statements made in support of this are entirely accurate.

The definition of a pilgrimage is a walk to a shrine.

I doubt that any single meaning could be given to the concept of pilgrimage, certainly not one cast so narrowly as this. I do agree that one might be a pilgrim with a destination other than SDC in mind. But as we have seen in other recent discussions about this, this is in itself a complex topic.

the near obsession with receiving the compostella.

There has been sufficient discussion about this, and forum members who report that they are no longer interested in collecting the Compostela, or are not walking to SDC, to suggest this just isn't true.

I suggest that just as more and more cities are issuing credentials

Are they? The Pilgrim Office website says "You can get [the credential] it by requesting it in person at the Pilgrim’s Reception Office or other institutions authorised by the Cathedral of Santiago for their distribution, such as parish churches, Associations of Friends of the Way of St. James, pilgrim hostels, confraternities, etc." Not a single mention of cities, towns etc.

Unfortunately, this doesn't leave much of any substance to comment on other than the thought that there might be some framework to offer certificates at various places. Details of by whom, where and what qualifying conditions might apply haven't been explored.

Certainly there seems to be adequate historical precedent for pilgrims collecting simple, easy to carry items they have collected on their pilgrimage as evidence of their journey. There are already plenty of trinket traders in the towns and cities along the way catering for those wanting items like this. So I presume that these certificates would sit above such tourist oriented memorabilia.

I have no difficulty with that, but it is not something that I would be all that interested in collecting. Even if I were, I don't understand what role the OP thinks we might have as a forum. Interest, perhaps, but are we actually going to go out and proselytise for every city along all the camino routes to have some arrangement to produce a difficult to carry paper certificate saying 'I've been here!'. I think I would rather collect a pencil from the cathedral with its name emblazoned along the side.

 

[michal.don]

Or just stop issuing the Compostela and other certificates altogether? Is an endless succession of pieces of paper really necessary?

Necessary? No. But I have my compostella framed in my living room, and every time I happen to look at it, it reminds me of all the great experiences I had and wonderful people I met on my camino. Sure, the credencial is a great "souvenir" as well, but not as "framable" as the compostella, so I'm really glad to have one

 

[dbier]

The OP raises a point, which I agree with, since I benefit. Why should Compostela be limited to those who can afford the weeks of time to complete a larger portion of a route?

For me, the Compostela signifies what it says, since I go to Santiago for my soul or the souls of others. As an example, my biological mother's In Vicarie Pro hangs above her ashes, currently located in my sister's house.

What Compostela or the distance certificate mean to others is for them to evaluate, and not my business. I will continue to " collect" Compostela, each time I am blessed enough and can afford the sacrifice to meet the requirements.

Other cities developing certificates would mean nothing at all to me. I'd probably buy a pen, instead.

Buen Camino.

 

[Anthony Rocco]

The OP raises a point, which I agree with, since I benefit. Why should Compostela be limited to those who can afford the weeks of time to complete a larger portion of a route?

For me, the Compostela signifies what it says, since I go to Santiago for my soul or the souls of others. As an example, my biological mother's In Vicarie Pro hangs above her ashes, currently located in my sister's house.

What Compostela or the distance certificate mean to others is for them to evaluate, and not my business. I will continue to " collect" Compostela, each time I am blessed enough and can afford the sacrifice to meet the requirements.

Other cities developing certificates would mean nothing at all to me. I'd probably buy a pen, instead.

Buen Camino.

There were two that meant a lot to me. The Ignaziano, from Loyola to Manresa, was a much more difficult camino than the Frances. It was not our first and we knew what to expect and how to deal with the challenges. When we finally arrived in Manresa, we found the lady who would provide a certificate and were grilled extensively about what we did. Unlike the QR code and less than a minute at Santiago, this reminded me of what I understood were the kinds of questions that used to be asked in Santiago before the caminos to there went viral.

The second was the one we received in Oviedo after completing the Salvador. It was a challenging but brief camino, which included the most unforgettable albergue (Benduenos) and a very moving experience at the cathedral in Oviedo. I was so deeply moved by the extraordinary statue of James and John outside the reliquary room that I purchased a small copy of the statue and carried it all the way to Santiago on the Primitivo. I cherish not only the statue but the Salvadorana.

Pilgrims since time immemorial seek mementos, whether it's to Lourdes, Mecca or shrines in Japan. For us, it's not a hike. It's a pilgrimage.

 

[Peregrinopaul]

Or just stop issuing the Compostela and other certificates altogether? Is an endless succession of pieces of paper really necessary? As the pilgrim office no longer takes any active interest in a pilgrim's motives the Compostela no longer really signifies what the text declares in any case.

I’m wondering if all our arguments on this topic might be completely skewed on this forum. After all isn’t it a fact that the vast majority of pilgrims who walk the last 100km in order to qualify for the compostela are actually Spanish? That suggests to me that the compostela might have much more significance to them than to other national groups.

 

[oursonpolaire]

I’m wondering if all our arguments on this topic might be completely skewed on this forum. After all isn’t it a fact that the vast majority of pilgrims who walk the last 100km in order to qualify for the compostela are actually Spanish? That suggests to me that the compostela might have much more significance to them than to other national groups.

I've done rather too many Caminos, but my impression of the Spanish is t hat they liked to travel in groups-- schools, clubs, churches, alumni, gaggles of friends of longstanding, or just a few gathered together. For them perhaps it might be a reminder of that joint friendship exercise, providing another depth of meaning.

 

[isawtman]

As I have written before, the camino authorities should think about splitting the Camino Frances after Portomarin.

 

[dick bird]

As I have written before, the camino authorities should think about splitting the Camino Frances after Portomarin.

There is no such thing as ‘the Camino authorities’, or rather a bewildering number of stakeholders, organizations and levels of government who all make their own decisions about what and where a Camino is and rarely agree on the time of day let alone a Camino route.

 

[Walkalong]

Why is there an obsession with collecting Compostelas and certificates?
Why do so many start in Sarria when they could start further away, like Pamplona or Roncesvalles?

Would doing away with the computer printout be a step forward in the Camino spirit of Pilgrimage? People who really want one can print them at home.

Constant references to "the rules" almost every time the question of where, when or how to do a Camino comes up is marketing, promoting and commercializing what is supposed to be a Pilgrimage, or at least a walk in the spirit of one.

 

[Kathor1]

Why is there an obsession with collecting Compostelas and certificates?
Why do so many start in Sarria when they could start further away, like Pamplona or Roncesvalles?

Is there actually such a general obsession?

And perhaps those who start in Sarria, especially Spanish Camino pilgrims, simply enjoy walking for just a week and enjoy walking in green Galicia in the summer months instead of elsewhere in Spain and would do exactly the same without the Compostela award system.

 

[Walkalong]

I did not suggest that Spanish Camino pilgrims would not walk if it were not for collecting a Compostela.

The obsession I'm referring to is the the number of threads in which the rules for collecting a Compostela are referenced or introduced as a caveat for completing a pilgrimage. There is hardly a thread here on how, when or where to start or do a Camino without a reminder of the rules to obtain a Compostela. Those rules are not required for a pilgrimage, but they are for a Compostela.

If people are just enjoying a leisurely walk through the hills of Galicia then why do so many take the time and effort to collect a Compostela, when they could more easily do any number of other more relaxing things?

 

[Kathor1]

The obsession I'm referring to is the the number of threads in which the rules for collecting a Compostela are referenced or introduced as a caveat for completing a pilgrimage.

Thank you for the clarification for your previous post.

It wasn’t clear to me that you see an obsession with discussing the Compostela in forum threads while the first post of the thread refers to "the last 100 kilometers" and the near obsession with receiving the compostella, and the 2019 interview with A. Pombo does not mention any obsession at all but points out the - in his opinion - negative effects of the combination of the 100 km + Compostela requirement that is the current policy of the Cabildo of the Cathedral of Santiago and has been their policy for several decades.

I am not sure what the thread is meant to be about. If more certificates were issued in the various Camino towns then more people would go on short Camino pilgrimages ending in these towns? I think that this is the OP‘s premise for discussion?

 

[DoughnutANZ]

I haven't sought a Compostela or other certificate since 2014 and don't imagine I will do in the future - so it wouldn't matter to me if there were more or fewer, or none - though I can understand that others feel differently. By contrast, like many others, I do treasure my credenciales. They bring back particular memories and they signify 'the journey' which, for me, is more significant than 'the destination'.

And yet, according to @dougfitz you are not entitled to the credential that you treasure.

 

[Former member 104756]

And yet, according to @dougfitz you are not entitled to the credential that you treasure.

And yet ... I'm ok with that.

 

[dougfitz]

And yet, according to @dougfitz you are not entitled to the credential that you treasure.

I think you will find that I have explained what the Pilgrim Office rules clearly state about the use of the credential. I have also suggested recently, in that context, that you need to make your own moral calculus about that. More, I have clearly stated in that same post that I cannot make that calculus for you.

Please don't misquote me.

 

[Robo]

As I have written before, the camino authorities should think about splitting the Camino Frances after Portomarin.

Why?

 

[Kathor1]

It is not always a good idea to quote from a different thread and out of context.

If I remember correctly, the model of the credencial issued by the Cathedral of Santiago and the models of the credencial issued by some international Camino associations have text that specifies something like “this credencial is only for those who …” and one of its two sole purposes is access to albergues who offer “the Christian hospitality of the Camino”. Other models of the credencial issued by other international Camino associations and also approved by the Cathedral of Santiago don’t have a similar requirement.

More often than not these days, I have doubts about the value of detailed text analysis and interpretation as to practical usefulness and relevance. I think it all dates back to 1987 and the Jaca conference. The fact is that Cathedral approved credencials are commonly used to collect sellos and to prove one’s qualification for access to a variety of albergues including municipal and Xunta albergues who do not offer the “acogida Cristiana” but a secular welcome.

Many Camino pilgrims value their credencials full of sellos more as a memento and acknowledgement of their completed Camino than a Compostela. This thread started out as a discussion of Compostela-like certificates and not credencial-like passports.

 

[SabsP]

As I have written before, the camino authorities should think about splitting the Camino Frances after Portomarin.

I invite you to try to understand the political and administrative organisation of Spain as a country.
See Wikipedia , especially the chapters on regional and local government.

Politics of Spain - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Another source.

Spain - Autonomous Regions, Constitution, Monarchy

Spain - Autonomous Regions, Constitution, Monarchy: From 1833 until 1939 Spain almost continually had a parliamentary system with a written constitution. Except during the First Republic (1873–74), the Second Republic (1931–36), and the Spanish Civil War (1936–39), Spain also always had a...

www.britannica.com

This link especially about legal powers.

Autonomous communities of Spain - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kathor1]

Why?

Same idea as the OP’s idea: It is assumed that these proposals - were they implemented - would reduce the number of Camino pilgrims walking at any given time in the most popular sections of the Camino Francés, i.e. they would spread out over several parallel trails or they would be inspired to walk in a different section of the CF or even another Camino de Santiago version as an alternative.

 

[Bradypus]

i.e. they would spread out over several parallel trails or they would be inspired to walk in a different section of the CF or even another Camino de Santiago version as an alternative.

There are already several alternative routes for the final 100km into Santiago. Although they have gained in popularity in recent years numbers walking the Frances after Sarria still continue to grow at a remarkable rate. I am not convinced that providing yet more alternative routes would effectively redistribute the current hordes. That particular route seems deeply embedded in popular perceptions of the Caminos.

 

[dick bird]

This may sound a bit brutal, but we are kind of whistling in the wind here. We have no control over who issues what certificates or why or to whom they issue them. Would it be a good idea for more churches and cathedrals (because they are the ones who do it) to issue compostela type certificates? I doubt if it would do any harm. I equally doubt if it would do any good, and I somewhat doubt if it would make any difference to anybody or anything.

 

[dick bird]

I invite you to try to understand the political and administrative organisation of Spain

Be warned, perfectly nice people have come close to losing their reason trying.

 

[SabsP]

Be warned, perfectly nice people have come close to losing their reason trying.

I know, I am the weirdo who enjoys learning about these themes...

 

[isawtman]

There is no such thing as ‘the Camino authorities’, or rather a bewildering number of stakeholders, organizations and levels of government who all make their own decisions about what and where a Camino is and rarely agree on the time of day let alone a Camino route.

Yeah, and the "Bewildering number of Stakeholders" should think about splitting the Camino Frances at Portomarin. Just because something is hard to do doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

 

[SabsP]

Yeah, and the "Bewildering number of Stakeholders" should think about splitting the Camino Frances at Portomarin. Just because something is hard to do doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

I mean this in the kindest way possible but which part of our earlier messages do you not seem to understand?
Why in the names of all gods should the ayuntamiento in Portomarin be bothered with a non issue from one specific member from this forum?

 

[isawtman]

I mean this in the kindest way possible but which part of our earlier messages do you not seem to understand?
Why in the names of all gods should the ayuntamiento in Portomarin be bothered with a non issue from one specific member from this forum?

It is not a non issue. Overcrowding in the last 100 km is the biggest issue on the Camino Frances right now. There are several other variants on the Camino Frances, why can't there be one for the last 80 km?

 

[dougfitz]

Yeah, and the "Bewildering number of Stakeholders" should think about splitting the Camino Frances at Portomarin. Just because something is hard to do doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

I don't think you have made your case any more than you did in May 2023 when you raised this suggestion. There were many of us who were willing to entertain the idea but when asked for details, you were remarkably unforthcoming. Also, it seemed then that you were the one unwilling to accept the complexities it might entail. I don't think there has been much progress on that count, but if something has changed, please let us know.

 

[SabsP]

It is not a non issue. Overcrowding in the last 100 km is the biggest issue on the Camino Frances right now. There are several other variants on the Camino Frances, why can't there be one for the last 80 km?

Ayuntamiento de Portomarín, Lugo, Galicia

Ayuntamiento de Portomarín, Provincia Lugo, Comunidad autónoma Galicia, en la dirección Plaza Condes de Fenosa, código postal 27170. Teléfono del ayuntamiento: 982545070.

www.ayuntamiento.es

For all your questions : contactdetails of the ayuntamiento in Portomarin.

Though I doubt your question will be quickly answered seeing they are most probably more busy caring for local schools, seniors, public health etc but you never know.

 

[isawtman]

Ayuntamiento de Portomarín, Lugo, Galicia

Ayuntamiento de Portomarín, Provincia Lugo, Comunidad autónoma Galicia, en la dirección Plaza Condes de Fenosa, código postal 27170. Teléfono del ayuntamiento: 982545070.

www.ayuntamiento.es

For all your questions : contactdetails of the ayuntamiento in Portomarin.

Though I doubt your question will be quicly answered seeing they are most probably more busy caring for local schools, seniors, publiic health etc but you never know.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

[dick bird]

Yeah, and the "Bewildering number of Stakeholders" should think about splitting the Camino Frances at Portomarin. Just because something is hard to do doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

I suspect that if they want to do it, they will do it in their own good time, not when we tell them to.

 

[isawtman]

I suspect that if they want to do it, they will do it in their own good time, not when we tell them to.

We are not telling them anything. We are making a suggestion. And I believe in the power of suggestion. People have to be a lot less cynical. There are over a dozen variants on the Camino Frances already including the Valcarlos variant right at the start.

 

[jfgough]

I'm sure many of you like me have followed the writing of Anton Pombo, who is currently lecturing in the United States. See this interview: https://www.fundacionjacobea.org/en...pombo-a-reflection-on-the-camino-de-santiago/

While so many of us truly believe there is no right or wrong camino, those of us who have walked the camino when it was less traveled also know that there have been profound changes in the camino infrastructure, all for the better, but also the profile of many walkers. In particular, there has been more and more voices concerned about "the last 100 kilometers" and the near obsession with receiving the compostella.

While there has been talk of increasing the required distance to 200 kms, I personally reject that because many working people in particular do not have the time for a longer walk. I suggest the 100 kms requirment be kept to receive a compostella. Instead, I suggest that just as more and more cities are issuing credentials, more and more cities should also present certificates to those who arrive there. Oviedo has a wonderful Salvadorana for those who walk the Salvador. We received that. We also received a certificate at the Shrine of the Virgen Peregrina in Sahagun after completing the Camino Madrid, which joins the Frances there. And then there is the certificate in Muxia.

Those who walk the Portugues know they will received a certificate at the tourist office in Padron. And when we walked the Ignaziano, we received a certificat in Manresa. I suggest that others cities follow suit, including Burgos and Leon, both of which have marvellous cathedrals that are shrines.

The definition of a pilgrimage is a walk to a shrine. Even Estella, which offers the oldest credencial, has a lovely shrine to the Virgen del Puy. They could also offer a certificate. And Pamplona can offer a certificate for those who walk the Baztan.

Let's be clear: while all roads may lead to Santiago, many who walk only have a week or so to walk. Santiago need not be the only goal.

I'm sure everyone has their own motivation, but the Compostella was rather anticlimactic for me. I'm fact, it is still rolled up in its cardboard tube. What I like to show people is my passport and the many varied stamps. Those are the most important memories for me. But to each their own.

 

[Trekker One]

How about 'participation ribbons' for those that need a memento of their walk? I'll admit that on any of my walks that terminated in Santiago I did collect a Compostela, have five of them.
Now that they have lost the personal touch of having your details filled in by hand, I don't think I would bother in the future should I end up in Santiago again.

 

[David Tallan]

Are they? The Pilgrim Office website says "You can get [the credential] it by requesting it in person at the Pilgrim’s Reception Office or other institutions authorised by the Cathedral of Santiago for their distribution, such as parish churches, Associations of Friends of the Way of St. James, pilgrim hostels, confraternities, etc." Not a single mention of cities, towns etc.

I think perhaps the reference was to their being credentials for walking to different cities. I have a credential for the the San Salvador, which is explicitly a pilgrimage to Oviedo and not Santiago, and another credential for the Camino to Finisterre and Muxia, which is a walk away from Santiago. Neither of these needs approval from the Pilgrim's Reception Office or the Cathedral in Santiago and for both of these routes I think the people providing hospitality are aware of where the pilgrims are walking to and not concerned that the destination is not Santiago.

 

[David Tallan]

It is not a non issue. Overcrowding in the last 100 km is the biggest issue on the Camino Frances right now.

Biggest issue for whom? It's a big issue for you, certainly. It wasn't a big issue for me when I passed through that part of the Camino in late July last year. It doesn't seem to be a big issue for the Spanish authorities who continue to promote this sector of tourism and presumably welcome the growth.

 

[DwainS]

I'm sure everyone has their own motivation, but the Compostella was rather anticlimactic for me. I'm fact, it is still rolled up in its cardboard tube. What I like to show people is my passport and the many varied stamps. Those are the most important memories for me. But to each their own.

I got mine last June and it is still rolled up in the tube. I will come out eventually.

 

[oursonpolaire]

How about 'participation ribbons' for those that need a memento of their walk? I'll admit that on any of my walks that terminated in Santiago I did collect a Compostela, have five of them.
Now that they have lost the personal touch of having your details filled in by hand, I don't think I would bother in the future should I end up in Santiago again.

I would go for (obligatory) participation tattooes.

Having been on the fringe of Camino decision-making, I shudder at the complications involved in changing the point to Portomarin, nor do I think it fair to the good burghers of Portomarin to subject them to the process. Life is short.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I got mine last June and it is still rolled up in the tube. I will come out eventually.

I'm still saying that...since 2015.

 

[Anthony Rocco]

I knew when I started this thread that it would be controversial. And reading through the comments, it certainly has been.

I have not raised this and I am reluctant to start a new thread, but there is clear evidence that Spanish authorities in Madrid are looking closer and closer at the camino since it has become truly big business. There have been moves to concentrate authority which I find troubling, especially regarding local amigos associacianos, some of which have been doing exceptional work for pilgrims for so many years with a local sense of pride and goodwill.

I guess this was inevitable. I hope the camino doesn't end up on listed on the Bolsa de Madrid!

 

[dougfitz]

I think perhaps the reference was to their being credentials for walking to different cities. I have a credential for the the San Salvador, which is explicitly a pilgrimage to Oviedo and not Santiago, and another credential for the Camino to Finisterre and Muxia, which is a walk away from Santiago. Neither of these needs approval from the Pilgrim's Reception Office or the Cathedral in Santiago and for both of these routes I think the people providing hospitality are aware of where the pilgrims are walking to and not concerned that the destination is not Santiago.

David, thank you for that explanation. I must admit that I had overlooked this possibility. I should have known better, having walked three times in Spain and Portugal with credentials from similar sources.

 

[isawtman]

Biggest issue for whom? It's a big issue for you, certainly. It wasn't a big issue for me when I passed through that part of the Camino in late July last year. It doesn't seem to be a big issue for the Spanish authorities who continue to promote this sector of tourism and presumably welcome the growth.

Judging from the number of posts we are getting about the last 100km, it is the biggest issue for a number of pilgrims. What else would be the biggest issue?

 

[LTfit]

Or just stop issuing the Compostela and other certificates altogether? Is an endless succession of pieces of paper really necessary? As the pilgrim office no longer takes any active interest in a pilgrim's motives the Compostela no longer really signifies what the text declares in any case.

My thoughts exactly. Nothing to add.

 

[Dougie]

I'm sure many of you like me have followed the writing of Anton Pombo, who is currently lecturing in the United States. See this interview: https://www.fundacionjacobea.org/en...pombo-a-reflection-on-the-camino-de-santiago/

While so many of us truly believe there is no right or wrong camino, those of us who have walked the camino when it was less traveled also know that there have been profound changes in the camino infrastructure, all for the better, but also the profile of many walkers. In particular, there has been more and more voices concerned about "the last 100 kilometers" and the near obsession with receiving the compostella.

While there has been talk of increasing the required distance to 200 kms, I personally reject that because many working people in particular do not have the time for a longer walk. I suggest the 100 kms requirment be kept to receive a compostella. Instead, I suggest that just as more and more cities are issuing credentials, more and more cities should also present certificates to those who arrive there. Oviedo has a wonderful Salvadorana for those who walk the Salvador. We received that. We also received a certificate at the Shrine of the Virgen Peregrina in Sahagun after completing the Camino Madrid, which joins the Frances there. And then there is the certificate in Muxia.

Those who walk the Portugues know they will received a certificate at the tourist office in Padron. And when we walked the Ignaziano, we received a certificat in Manresa. I suggest that others cities follow suit, including Burgos and Leon, both of which have marvellous cathedrals that are shrines.

The definition of a pilgrimage is a walk to a shrine. Even Estella, which offers the oldest credencial, has a lovely shrine to the Virgen del Puy. They could also offer a certificate. And Pamplona can offer a certificate for those who walk the Baztan.

Let's be clear: while all roads may lead to Santiago, many who walk only have a week or so to walk. Santiago need not be the only goal.

I'm sure many of you like me have followed the writing of Anton Pombo, who is currently lecturing in the United States. See this interview: https://www.fundacionjacobea.org/en...pombo-a-reflection-on-the-camino-de-santiago/

While so many of us truly believe there is no right or wrong camino, those of us who have walked the camino when it was less traveled also know that there have been profound changes in the camino infrastructure, all for the better, but also the profile of many walkers. In particular, there has been more and more voices concerned about "the last 100 kilometers" and the near obsession with receiving the compostella.

While there has been talk of increasing the required distance to 200 kms, I personally reject that because many working people in particular do not have the time for a longer walk. I suggest the 100 kms requirment be kept to receive a compostella. Instead, I suggest that just as more and more cities are issuing credentials, more and more cities should also present certificates to those who arrive there. Oviedo has a wonderful Salvadorana for those who walk the Salvador. We received that. We also received a certificate at the Shrine of the Virgen Peregrina in Sahagun after completing the Camino Madrid, which joins the Frances there. And then there is the certificate in Muxia.

Those who walk the Portugues know they will received a certificate at the tourist office in Padron. And when we walked the Ignaziano, we received a certificat in Manresa. I suggest that others cities follow suit, including Burgos and Leon, both of which have marvellous cathedrals that are shrines.

The definition of a pilgrimage is a walk to a shrine. Even Estella, which offers the oldest credencial, has a lovely shrine to the Virgen del Puy. They could also offer a certificate. And Pamplona can offer a certificate for those who walk the Baztan.

Let's be clear: while all roads may lead to Santiago, many who walk only have a week or so to walk. Santiago need not be the only goal.

I don't bother with a Compostela certificate and I find walking 100 kilometres not to be much of a challenge but I appreciate that for many it is and for a completely selfish reason I would welcome an end to the Compostela certificate as it may discourage many 100k walkers from walking in the first place making the road less crowded especially from those usual bottle necks most longer walkers dred. Before I retired and could only manage a maximum of 7 days on the Camino I was much happier walking sections on each route but have never walked the Sarria to Santiago section as the overcrowding stories always put me off it but I will be walking the entire Francis starting in April but thinking about a detour from Ponferrada and walking the Invierno to Santiago instead of the Sarria route. I have my credentials to remind me and I treasure them far more than a certificate.

 

[Kathor1]

Judging from the number of posts we are getting about the last 100km, it is the biggest issue for a number of pilgrims.

The forum Camino walkers (future, present and past) are not representative of the Camino Francés walkers as a whole. The majority of those start in Sarria (over 60% in 2023 and currently 65 % for this year).

Many posters who write about their issue with the Sarria section on this forum started long before Sarria and/or say that they will never walk there again - so no new parallel paths needed for them.

The answer from the Galician authorities appears to be: If you don’t like to walk with many others on the Camino trail then walk at a time of the year when fewer people walk. There are plenty of months of the year to choose from.

In fact, that is what they want to achieve: a de-seasonalisation of the Camino trails that run through the region of Galicia so that albergues and hotels and bars get filled with customers throughout the year and not only during a few months of Camino peak season.

I am sure that this has been pointed out before.

 

[Kathor1]

there is clear evidence that Spanish authorities in Madrid are looking closer and closer at the camino since it has become truly big business. There have been moves to concentrate authority which I find troubling, especially regarding local amigos associacianos

I am just curious: What is this clear evidence? I follow developments on and off but I can’t think of what you mean by this clear evidence and a concentration of authority in Madrid.

 

[Bradypus]

I am just curious: What is this clear evidence? I follow developments on and off but I can’t think of what you mean by this clear evidence and a concentration of authority in Madrid.

I was wondering about that too. The modern Camino Frances in Galicia was embraced very early in its history by the Xunta in Galicia as a tool for promoting what was then a deprived and largely overlooked corner of Spain. Becoming in effect far more of an officially sponsored and deliberately managed project than in other regions along the route. True also for the later routes which have been developed as they pass through Galicia. But the focus of that centralised management has always been in Santiago rather than Madrid.

 

[henrythedog]

I once worked very briefly for a huge American multinational where staff wore their long-service badges to work.

I’ve had some fairly bad jobs in my time, but that was right up there.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The definition of a pilgrimage is a walk to a shrine.

Car pilgrims, train pilgrims, plane pilgrims, bus pilgrims, bike pilgrims, horse pilgrims, boat pilgrims who visit such a shrine with religious purpose are pilgrims.

The Way of Saint James is actually unusual in that foot pilgrims with no conscious nor deliberate religious purpose are also recognised as pilgrims.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

I would go for (obligatory) participation tattooes.

Having been on the fringe of Camino decision-making, I shudder at the complications involved in changing the point to Portomarin, nor do I think it fair to the good burghers of Portomarin to subject them to the process. Life is short.

OTOH, after climbing those stairs at the end of the day I felt like I deserved some reward!

 

[JabbaPapa]

And perhaps those who start in Sarria, especially Spanish Camino pilgrims, simply enjoy walking for just a week and enjoy walking in green Galicia in the summer months instead of elsewhere in Spain and would do exactly the same without the Compostela award system.

Many young Spaniards do exactly that.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I'm sure everyone has their own motivation, but the Compostella was rather anticlimactic for me. I'm fact, it is still rolled up in its cardboard tube. What I like to show people is my passport and the many varied stamps. Those are the most important memories for me. But to each their own.

I always glue my Compostela into my credencial.

 

[David Tallan]

Judging from the number of posts we are getting about the last 100km, it is the biggest issue for a number of pilgrims. What else would be the biggest issue?

Bedbugs?

 

[Texas Walker]

I always glue my Compostela into my credencial.

err...my Compostela is significantly larger than my credencial. Any of them. Do they issue a wallet size now? My credenciales (mostly) do sit inside their tubes, as that is safe storage for them. The exception being the first one, which is framed. The profile pic shows what else I have done to have something to look at and remember, also we have the thumb drives with photos that we can view on the TV...I still want to get my Compostela when I achieve Santiago. Especially since this time (last spring) I got injured, had to come home early, and am soon going to return to the path.
Some folks seem very concerned that they have to share the path more at the end of the walk. (The hordes of the collegio groups cross my mind here.) I remind myself, the Camino is not my private property. And it's amusing watching that girl try to jump over her walking pole as she goes.

 

[JabbaPapa]

err...my Compostela is significantly larger than my credencial. Any of them. Do they issue a wallet size now?

They're made of paper and are foldable.

 

[trecile]

Some folks seem very concerned that they have to share the path more at the end of the walk. (The hordes of the collegio groups cross my mind here.) I remind myself, the Camino is not my private property. And it's amusing watching that girl try to jump over her walking pole as she goes.

And the larger numbers of pilgrims in the last 100 km get you acclimated back to regular life.

 

[Peregrinopaul]

If anyone is confused, I just deleted a post that was intended as a PM for a forum member.

 

[isawtman]

The forum Camino walkers (future, present and past) are not representative of the Camino Francés walkers as a whole. The majority of those start in Sarria (over 60% in 2023 and currently 65 % for this year).

Many posters who write about their issue with the Sarria section on this forum started long before Sarria and/or say that they will never walk there again - so no new parallel paths needed for them.

The answer from the Galician authorities appears to be: If you don’t like to walk with many others on the Camino trail then walk at a time of the year when fewer people walk. There are plenty of months of the year to choose from.

In fact, that is what they want to achieve: a de-seasonalisation of the Camino trails that run through the region of Galicia so that albergues and hotels and bars get filled with customers throughout the year and not only during a few months of Camino peak season.

I am sure that this has been pointed out before.

You're making my point for me. You say many posters say they will never walk there again. If there is an alternative path, then yes, many people might decide to walk there again.

 

[Buitenbeentje]

Two years back, when I arrived in Santiago (after walking from Le-Puy-en Velay), I did not even bother to get the Compostela. Not important to me.
The year before that, when I walked the Via Francigena (from Calais) I did get the certificate, because I was told it was a special experience. And it was. I was let into some beautiful side chamber in the Vatican church, with religious art all around me. You get your certificate from a priest, sitting at an antique desk. And you have to sign your name on it there and then.
So I'm glad I got my certificate in Rome. Not because of the piece of paper (i don't even know where I left it), but because of the unique and authentic experience. If you gonna walk the Via Francigena, I can highly reccomend it.

 

[dick bird]

You're making my point for me. You say many posters say they will never walk there again. If there is an alternative path, then yes, many people might decide to walk there again.

Camino routes are not created - they are recognised, i.e. a route has to have existed as a pilgrimage route at some time in the past and there has to be evidence for this. This evidence must be both documentary, as in the Codex Calixtinus, and physical in the form of buildings such as the bridge in Puente La Reina. So far as I know, there is no route from Portomarín that meets these two criteria.

 

[Kathor1]

Camino routes are not created - they are recognised, i.e. a route has to have existed as a pilgrimage route at some time in the past and there has to be evidence for this

Which, however, is a point that may be unknown to or may not matter much to a number of people who walk today - otherwise we would not repeatedly read about “parallel” paths that could be created along the Camino Francés - just like the Valcarlos route that is parallel to the Napoleon route, according to that way of reasoning.

 

[Anthony Rocco]

Car pilgrims, train pilgrims, plane pilgrims, bus pilgrims, bike pilgrims, horse pilgrims, boat pilgrims who visit such a shrine with religious purpose are pilgrims.

The Way of Saint James is actually unusual in that foot pilgrims with no conscious nor deliberate

Car pilgrims, train pilgrims, plane pilgrims, bus pilgrims, bike pilgrims, horse pilgrims, boat pilgrims who visit such a shrine with religious purpose are pilgrims.

The Way of Saint James is actually unusual in that foot pilgrims with no conscious nor deliberate religious purpose are also recognised as pilgrims.

I am a passionate pilgrim who have visited shrines everywhere in the world. Whether Bhuddist shrines in Mongolia, Tibet, Bhutan or Nepal, Hindu shrines in India, Muslim shrines (yes, there are Musim shrines) in Oman, Tunisia, Iraq or Egypt...I have always been welcomed as a pilgrim, despite being a curious traveler and not an adherent to their faiths.

One of my most memorable experiences was hitchiking for a month in Iraq way back in 1977. One night I could find nowhere to sleep, so I slept in the mosque in Kerbala. I truly felt like a pilgrim, and as I was leaving, I noticed that workers were replacing some of the beautiful blue tiles on the outside. They were discarding old ones, so I took one. I keep it today in a display case and often look at it, smiling as I recall that experience.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Camino routes are not created - they are recognised, i.e. a route has to have existed as a pilgrimage route at some time in the past and there has to be evidence for this. This evidence must be both documentary, as in the Codex Calixtinus, and physical in the form of buildings such as the bridge in Puente La Reina. So far as I know, there is no route from Portomarín that meets these two criteria.

That really is not true. For several years now, it has been the case that those who live in Portomarín and walk to Santiago are eligible for a Compostela, and similarly for others who live in Galicia in villages and towns distant less than 100K from the Tomb of the Apostle.

Architectural features have exactly nothing to do with the recognition of routes, but literary, traditional, and other "soft" evidence matters far more.

The last time we had this discussion with @Kathar1na and others, it emerged nevertheless from my own research, hers, and others' that the Xunta made a policy decision that no route shorter than 100K, with a couple of notable historic and already established exceptions, can be recognised by the Authorities as an "official" route -- that being said, pilgrims who live in Galicia and start from home / from their parish church do benefit from an exception to the normal rules, if they follow historic routes shorter than 100K, of which there are many.

 

[DwainS]

And the larger numbers of pilgrims in the last 100 km get you acclimated back to regular life.

I didn't let the crowds on the last 100km bother me, in fact I said to this man from the UK I was walking with that I wish could have experienced a walk like this with my friends when I was in high school. What a good way to bond with fellow classmates. Then I said, I wonder if they think it would be less crowed if there weren't all these foreigners walking the trail.

 

[dick bird]

he Xunta made a policy decision that no route shorter than 100K, with a couple of notable historic and already established exceptions, can be recognised by the Authorities as an "official" route

This probably needs a whole new thread, in fact there probably is one, though I failed to find it (and I can almost hear Kathar1na´s laptop warming up as I write).

Gone are the days when a camino route could be established merely by dabbing painted yellow arrows on the side of buildings (and even Fr Elías Valiña was anecdotally once arrested for doing precisely that). The fact remains that, as you say, a route has to be recognised by the civil authorities and apart from the issuing of a Compostela, it is their recognition that matters since they are the ones who will be responsible for the signage, the infrastructure, maintenance of the track (not to mention the budget for all that) and the actual route. This is where problems arise: farmers and landowners will be highly displeased if thousands of pilgrims suddenly start processing past their front door, businesses will be equally displeased if they don´t. Archaeological evidence in the form of an old road or buildings would therefore be important.

There have been reports on this forum of pilgrims arriving in Santiago on foot and being refused a Compostela because they did not follow a recognised route, so it is apparently an issue.

Whether we say ´create´, ´recognise´, ´establish´ or ´discover´; a new/old camino route does not come about without a lot of hard work, time and resources on the part of a lot of very committed people, and to airily suggest that a new camino route can be brought into being merely because us pilgrims would find it convenient is to undervalue the efforts of those people, such as the famous Ender, who have actually succeeded in doing it.

 

[C clearly]

If there is an alternative path, then yes, many people might decide to walk there again.

And how, then, does this fix the problem?

it is the biggest issue for a number of pilgrims

Sorry, but what exactly is the issue you are trying to fix? Too many pilgrims? Too few beds? Not even room on the paths? Too much toilet paper on the path? Pilgrims too happy? Other pilgrims too grumpy? Not enough churches open? Luggage transfer too expensive/cheap? Pilgrims with the wrong attitude? All of the above?

How will giving out more or fewer compostela-type certificates (the subject of this thread) help?

 

[dick bird]

Instead, I suggest that just as more and more cities are issuing credentials, more and more cities should also present certificates to those who arrive there.

From what he said in his interview, I am not sure that Anton Pombo would agree with that. He seems to think that the issuing of a certificate (aka the Compostela) has somehow undervalued the camino and distracted from its value as a pilgrimage route. He would probably argue that more places issuing certificates would exacerbate this problem rather than alleviating it.

 

[JabbaPapa]

to airily suggest that a new camino route can be brought into being merely because us pilgrims would find it convenient

I have suggested nothing of the sort, airily or otherwise.

 

[dick bird]

I have suggested nothing of the sort, airily or otherwise.

There has been a misunderstanding here, and if it was my fault, I apologise for it. It was absolutely not my intention to say this about you, far from it. I know you take the camino and pilgrimage more seriously than anyone and so far as I am aware you have never suggested such a thing, nor would you.

There have been suggestions made by others, however, that a new camino could or should be created as if this were an easy thing to do. I think we both know it is neither. It was these suggestions I was trying to counter.

 

[trecile]

I have suggested nothing of the sort, airily or otherwise.

I think that @dick bird was referring to the post from @isawtman with that particular comment.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

You're making my point for me. You say many posters say they will never walk there again. If there is an alternative path, then yes, many people might decide to walk there again.

There is a alternative Camino, Starting in Ponferrada and it's called the Invierno.

 

[JabbaPapa]

There have been suggestions made by others, however, that a new camino could or should be created as if this were an easy thing to do. I think we both know it is neither. It was these suggestions I was trying to counter.

Thank you for the explanation.

This is actually a somewhat complex topic, particularly concerning Camino routes not recognised by the Xunta, especially those that are shorter than 100K from pueblos where some Galician foot pilgrims have their homes.

There's the issue of routes that the Xunta recognises --- and then individual pilgrimages that the Diocese and the Church, via the Pilgrims Office, may recognise.

As to these sorts of routes in a more down-to-earth practical sense, the reality is that the roads, trails, and dirt roads infrastructure naturally draws people into the very same network of itineraries that has come into being over the course of centuries. I have experienced this very thing multiple times -- making my own way off the beaten path, I have several times been drawn most naturally indeed, through the avoidance of rivers and the seeking of bridges, and looking for the easier route avoiding hills and mountains, to find myself on a traditionally established pilgrimage route that I'd either never heard of before, or found myself surprised to have gotten onto non-deliberately.

It's complex in that way, but as simple as possible in another -- if you follow your feet towards Santiago, topography alone will lead you towards the major routes and towards other pilgrims on their own ways. The major routes do not derive from top-down officialdom, but they have come into being naturally, from millions of pilgrims over the centuries finding and sharing the more sensible ways forward.

 

[isawtman]

And how, then, does this fix the problem?


Sorry, but what exactly is the issue you are trying to fix? Too many pilgrims? Too few beds? Not even room on the paths? Too much toilet paper on the path? Pilgrims too happy? Other pilgrims too grumpy? Not enough churches open? Luggage transfer too expensive/cheap? Pilgrims with the wrong attitude? All of the above?

How will giving out more or fewer compostela-type certificates (the subject of this thread) help?

Yes, having an alternative path fixes all those problems. There are already over 10 variants on the Camino Frances. Some examples are Valcarlos, Montejurra, Villovieco, Calzadillo de los Hermanillos, Pradelo and of course the most famous one is Samos/San Xil.

 

[C clearly]

Yes, having an alternative path fixes all those problems. There are already over 10 variants on the Camino Frances.

So, having 11 variants will fix everything?

The thousands of people who start in Sarria could start in Chantada or Monforte de Lemos on the already-existing Camino de Invierno. Why is adding a separate new route from Sarria a better solution than promoting a different starting point?

But that is all off-topic for this thread, which is about giving out more or fewer compostela-type certificates for some reason.

 

[isawtman]

So, having 11 variants will fix everything?

The thousands of people who start in Sarria could start in Chantada or Monforte de Lemos on the already-existing Camino de Invierno. Why is adding a separate new route from Sarria a better solution than promoting a different starting point?

But that is all off-topic for this thread, which is about giving out more or fewer compostela-type certificates for some reason.

Having 11 variants will not fix the problems in the last 100 km because none of those variants are in the last 100 km. I suppose they could just ban people who are doing only 100 km from doing the Frances and make them start at one of those other places.

 

[Pafayac]

I am a little confused about this story of Compostela.
In the past, I understand it could have a great importance because most of people were believing there is an Heaven, a Hell, a Purgatory, and indulgences was quite important. Since, Einstein have shown that time was not absolute. Therefore, indulgences (which are tight-coupled with time) become difficult to understand...
Nowadays, many christians do not believe that the indulgences are significant. Therefore, Compostela, which was a kind of evidence you deserve an indulgence for having walking toward the apostol, has no more the same meaning.
My suggestion is to deliver a Compostela to any people who ask for it, with no minimum distance, with no conditions: this will avoid people walking the last 100 km of the Camino, just to get a Compostela.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

I suppose they could just ban people who are doing only 100 km from doing the Frances and make them start at one of those other places.

Forcing people to start somewhere else just because they only want to walk the last 100km. is called discrimination in the modern world

 

[C clearly]

Forcing people to start somewhere else just because they only want to walk the last 100km. is called discrimination in the modern world

There are many facilities and natural areas around the world, including designated hiking trails, where authorities limit the number of people in order to protect the environment. This is OK as long as there is no discrimination based on gender, race, religion, etc.

However @isawtman fails to understand that the Camino uses public paths and roads where it would be difficult/impossible and inappropriate to control access. Closing off the roads from Sarria is really not an option!

Also, there are several alternate paths for people who wish to walk 100 km to Santiago but avoid the crowded Sarria-Santiago stretch. Promoting these existing options would be a much simpler way to disperse the pilgrims if that is seen to be necessary.

 

[Walkalong]

I am a little confused about this story of Compostela.
In the past, I understand it could have a great importance because most of people were believing there is an Heaven, a Hell, a Purgatory, and indulgences was quite important. Since, Einstein have shown that time was not absolute. Therefore, indulgences (which are tight-coupled with time) become difficult to understand...
Nowadays, many christians do not believe that the indulgences are significant. Therefore, Compostela, which was a kind of evidence you deserve an indulgence for having walking toward the apostol, has no more the same meaning.
My suggestion is to deliver a Compostela to any people who ask for it, with no minimum distance, with no conditions: this will avoid people walking the last 100 km of the Camino, just to get a Compostela.

Well said! Better still, just print them at home.

Think of the carbon savings in trees saved, and at the Pilgrims Office. Volunteers will freed up to help at Donativos.

In the interview, that triggered this thread, Antón Pombo said:
"The most negative change is clear: overcrowding. We wanted more pilgrims, but not so many. Also the noise, there is a lot of noise and much of it is created by people who are only attracted by what is fashionable and quite bereft of the pilgrims’ spirit. There is excessive commercialization, ...."

 

[trecile]

In the interview, that triggered this thread, Antón Pombo said:
"The most negative change is clear: overcrowding. We wanted more pilgrims, but not so many

This falls under the category "be careful what you wish for"!

 

[dick bird]

This falls under the category "be careful what you wish for"!

And when we complain about the number of pilgrims we are essentially complaining about the fact that other people are doing the same thing as us in the same place at the same time.

 

[dick bird]

Having 11 variants will not fix the problems in the last 100 km because none of those variants are in the last 100 km. I suppose they could just ban people who are doing only 100 km from doing the Frances and make them start at one of those other places.

Who is ´they´?

The Via de la Plata (Sanabrés), the Portugués and the Finisterra/Muxia routes all enter Santiago by different paths. These are alternatives, and officially recognised for the purpose of issuing a compostela. There are no reports of them being overcrowded, although the Portugués is now almost as popular as the Francés.

 

[Bradypus]

And when we complain about the number of pilgrims we are essentially complaining about the fact that other people are doing the same thing as us in the same place at the same time.

Within the last week the Xunta tourist agency has commented that their aim for tourism and the Caminos is to "deseasonalize" them - encouraging visitors in what are now the quieter periods. An attempt to stop the Caminos from "dying by success". I will be interested to see what concrete forms that aim might take. There are some fairly obvious reasons why numbers are concentrated in six or seven months of the year which are probably not very negotiable! I find the quiet of the winter months well worth the occasional inconveniences of the season but not many share my preferences in that respect.

Turismo de Galicia se fija como metas la sostenibilidad y convivencia de peregrinos y vecinos para evitar "morir de éxito"

La Xunta asegura que trabaja en programas para distribuir a los visitantes a lo largo de todo el año con el fin de que no se concentren solo en la temporada alta

www.eldiario.es

 

[JabbaPapa]

I am a little confused about this story of Compostela.
In the past, I understand it could have a great importance because most of people were believing there is an Heaven, a Hell, a Purgatory, and indulgences was quite important. Since, Einstein have shown that time was not absolute. Therefore, indulgences (which are tight-coupled with time) become difficult to understand...
Nowadays, many christians do not believe that the indulgences are significant. Therefore, Compostela, which was a kind of evidence you deserve an indulgence for having walking toward the apostol, has no more the same meaning.

The Compostela and the indulgences associated with the pilgrimage are two different things.

Historically, the Compostela was used as documentary evidence of having completed a penance (and very rarely still is), and it so could also be used as legal evidence for the lifting of the old penalty of minor excommunication, that was abolished by Pope Martin V.

As to the indulgences, the Compostela document has exactly nothing to do with them. Catholics who live in Santiago itself can gain the same indulgences by visiting their own Cathedral in the proper conditions, which do NOT include "walking 100K or more".

My suggestion is to deliver a Compostela to any people who ask for it, with no minimum distance, with no conditions: this will avoid people walking the last 100 km of the Camino, just to get a Compostela.

The only reason why distance requirements were introduced is because the number of pilgrims visiting the Tomb of the Apostle became large enough between the 1960s and 1980s that it became impossible for the Cathedral to provide them for everyone who qualified under the old rules.

As to "no conditions", well that simply is not how the Church understands pilgrimage as such.

 

[Kathor1]

As @JabbaPapa has already pointed out, Compostelas and indulgences have absolutely nothing zero nada to do with each other,

Numerous contemporary Camino peregrin@s are not aware of this simple fact.

 

[isawtman]

There are many facilities and natural areas around the world, including designated hiking trails, where authorities limit the number of people in order to protect the environment. This is OK as long as there is no discrimination based on gender, race, religion, etc.

However @isawtman fails to understand that the Camino uses public paths and roads where it would be difficult/impossible and inappropriate to control access. Closing off the roads from Sarria is really not an option!

Also, there are several alternate paths for people who wish to walk 100 km to Santiago but avoid the crowded Sarria-Santiago stretch. Promoting these existing options would be a much simpler way to disperse the pilgrims if that is seen to be necessary.

I don't fail to understand anything. I do admit that it was a fairly extreme suggestion. But they have made some camino altering rules in the past. For instance, at one point you could hike the Camino however you wanted and then they established official routes to follow. As others have posted, at some point they made a minimum distance rule. The fact is that you don't have to walk the Camino Frances proper in the last 100 km to get your compestela. You could walk some sort of alternative route if you wanted to. You could take some other country road that parallels the Camino Frances. All you have to do is get two stamps a day on the Camino Frances. You could do that at the beginning and end of the day.

 

[JabbaPapa]

at one point you could hike the Camino however you wanted

... and you still can.

and then they established official routes to follow.

There is a significant difference between routes officially recognised by the regional Authorities and "you must walk here and nowhere else !!"

The fact is that you don't have to walk the Camino Frances proper in the last 100 km to get your compestela. You could walk some sort of alternative route if you wanted to. You could take some other country road that parallels the Camino Frances. All you have to do is get two stamps a day on the Camino Frances. You could do that at the beginning and end of the day.

This is more or less true, under the provision that your route were demonstrably continuous -- and I would personally get 3 or 4 stamps daily in such circumstance, else risk being refused from insufficient evidence.

Those who try and "cheat" do exactly as you suggest.

 

[dougfitz]

The fact is that you don't have to walk the Camino Frances proper in the last 100 km to get your compestela. You could walk some sort of alternative route if you wanted to.

This seems to be contradicted by the text of the credential, which according to the Pilgrim Office translates as:

• The last 100 km must be done by any of the routes recognized as official by the S. A. M. I. Cathedral of Santiago. https://oficinadelperegrino.com/en/pilgrimage/the-credencial/

@isawtman, I recall you raising this some time ago in another, earlier, thread on this subject. All you seem to be doing here is re-hashing some discussion points that have already been addressed, and doing little to acknowledge the contributions that others have already made to help you understand what is already possible and has already been done by others.

I have stayed in places several km from the camino route, albeit not in the last 100 km, but I have also seen others who have done that. I don't need to have some other, alternative, route defined to do that, because I returned each day to walk the recognized route. I suspect others who stayed a little further away might have done something similar, or crafted a path to return to the camino from where they stayed that reasonably quickly brought them back onto the recognized path.

I cannot speak for others, but I know I am not interested in walking some theme park creation that lacks the historical significance of the paths recognized and preserved for their cultural value by the Galician government, and which the cathedral authorities have sanctioned for the purpose of awarding a Compostela. That this might entail some difficulty finding accommodation or some place to eat is part of my pilgrimage, a part that I share with the other pilgrims walking at the same time. I don't need the 'help' of someone whose sole purpose appears to take away that burden by creating some alternative without the historical, cultural, foundations that exist on any of the current routes.

 

[SabsP]

For instance, at one point you could hike the Camino however you wanted and then they established official routes to follow.

For me this is the essence of this whole non-debate : it is not a hike but a pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela.

Thank you @dougfitz for expressing it much better than I am able to.

 

[JabbaPapa]

This seems to be contradicted by the text of the credential, which according to the Pilgrim Office translates as:

The Spanish from the Cathedral, por cualquiera de las rutas reconocidas como oficiales por la S.A.M.I. Catedral de Santiago, is far less restrictive in intent than in the Xunta texts nor the English translations, which are both more legalistic and deceptively "precise".

The subtext in the Spanish is "you have walked at least 100K on a single route to the Cathedral and we have officially recognised that/your route" -- the word cualquiera here is VERY strong. It is certainly less restrictive than if they had used una.

Having said that, it does mean that any exceedingly DIY routes outwith the intention of the Cathedral in the pilgrimage will need to be more actively justified with documentary sello evidence, insufficiency of which can lead to a Compostela being denied in some cases. And it strongly implies that you really are better off following the yellow arrows for at least the final 100K or more, whilst leaving the door open to traditional routes other than those that are recognised by the Xunta.

I cannot speak for others, but I know I am not interested in walking some theme park creation that lacks the historical significance of the paths recognized and preserved for their cultural value by the Galician government

S.A.M.I. Catedral de Santiago is not the Galician government.

The Compostela is not provided by the State, but by the Church.

It is not a cultural document, but a religious one, and the recognition and preservation of some paths is entirely secondary to its significance.

The ONLY reason why there is a 100K minimal distance is because after a massive surge in pilgrims during the 1960s to the 1980s, this rule was implemented because the Cathedral ceased to be able to provide one to every pilgrim who wanted it.

As a reminder, pilgrims to the Tomb of the Apostle travel there by foot, by bike, by horse, by boat, by train, plane, bus, car, coach, and by whatsoever means of travel that they may choose.

If they do so with an intent recognised by the Church, then they are pilgrims.

To claim that the pilgrimage were some historical significance of the paths recognized and preserved for their cultural value by the Galician government is, I'm sorry, to misunderstand it entirely.

The Way of Saint James is neither created, nor defined, nor "sanctioned", nor limited by the regional Government of Galicia.

It is the common property of the Church and of every single pilgrim, individually one and each, and all of us together.

 

[David Tallan]

C Clearly wrote:

Sorry, but what exactly is the issue you are trying to fix? Too many pilgrims? Too few beds? Not even room on the paths? Too much toilet paper on the path? Pilgrims too happy? Other pilgrims too grumpy? Not enough churches open? Luggage transfer too expensive/cheap? Pilgrims with the wrong attitude? All of the above?

isawtman responded:

Yes, having an alternative path fixes all those problems. There are already over 10 variants on the Camino Frances. Some examples are Valcarlos, Montejurra, Villovieco, Calzadillo de los Hermanillos, Pradelo and of course the most famous one is Samos/San Xil.

I'm having a heard time seeing how an alternative path after Sarria removes toilet paper from the path when no other alternative route seems to do so. Similarly how an alternative path will open churches or change the price of luggage transfer. Not getting into how it is going to change the natural dispositions of pilgrims.

But I am sure the possibility exists I am missing something crucial that would enable it to do so.

 

[David Tallan]

I am a little confused about this story of Compostela.
In the past, I understand it could have a great importance because most of people were believing there is an Heaven, a Hell, a Purgatory, and indulgences was quite important. Since, Einstein have shown that time was not absolute. Therefore, indulgences (which are tight-coupled with time) become difficult to understand...
Nowadays, many christians do not believe that the indulgences are significant. Therefore, Compostela, which was a kind of evidence you deserve an indulgence for having walking toward the apostol, has no more the same meaning.
My suggestion is to deliver a Compostela to any people who ask for it, with no minimum distance, with no conditions: this will avoid people walking the last 100 km of the Camino, just to get a Compostela.

My understanding is that the Compostela is unrelated to the indulgence (partial or plenary depending on when you complete your pilgrimage). There is no distance requirement, nor walking (or biking or equestrian, etc.) requirement for the indulgence. However, there is a requirement to be Catholic, to visit the cathedral (and perhaps the relics), to confess one's sins and receive absolution and take communion. All my sins have thus not, in the eyes of the Catholic Church, been forgiven.

On the other hand, the Compostela is a completely separate thing: a document that says you have mead a certain kind of pilgrimage to Santiago with certain intent. But it doesn't carry a requirement to be Catholic nor to participate in any of the sacraments.

Those with greater knowledge can correct me if I am wrong.

 

[David Tallan]

I don't fail to understand anything. I do admit that it was a fairly extreme suggestion. But they have made some camino altering rules in the past. For instance, at one point you could hike the Camino however you wanted and then they established official routes to follow. As others have posted, at some point they made a minimum distance rule. The fact is that you don't have to walk the Camino Frances proper in the last 100 km to get your compestela. You could walk some sort of alternative route if you wanted to. You could take some other country road that parallels the Camino Frances. All you have to do is get two stamps a day on the Camino Frances. You could do that at the beginning and end of the day.

I'm the one who fails to understand. You say "they" have established rules and official routes to follow and one can no longer walk whatever Camino route one wants but must follow the rules. I fail to understand who they are and how they are preventing anyone from walking their choice of Camino.

I know that the Xunta has established certain routes. They provide signage and accommodations on those routes. But I'm not understanding how that prevents one from walking other routes.

I know that the Cathedral authority has established rules around their gift of a Compostela to pilgrims. But it is well known that a Compostela is not a requirement to walk a Camino. Many pilgrims have written about how they have no intention of collecting a Compostela when completing their Camino. If a Compostela were a requirement for a Camino, they surely couldn't do this. So how can any decisions of the Cathedral authority about who they wish to give a Compostela to force anyone to walk a route to Santiago different from the one they want to? They can encourage certain types of Caminos on certain routes, certainly. But that is a far cry from preventing different choices.

So, while I don't challenge your assertion that you understand everything, I can't say the same myself.

 

[Tincatinker]

To return to the original theme of this thread: souvenir collectors are welcome to a Tinker Bell. Awarded to any that survive our hospitality. If only so that we can hear you coming next time…

 

[dougfitz]

To claim that the pilgrimage were some historical significance of the paths recognized and preserved for their cultural value by the Galician government is, I'm sorry, to misunderstand it entirely.

The Way of Saint James is neither created, nor defined, nor "sanctioned", nor limited by the regional Government of Galicia.

It is the common property of the Church and of every single pilgrim, individually one and each, and all of us together.

@JabbaPapa, I addressed this last year, and you participated in the discussion. You might remember that I did point out that the Pilgrim Office itself acknowledges that the 'official routes' are those contained in Ley 5/2016 de 4 de mayo, del patrimonio cultural de Galicia, which provides the legal framework for the protection many things including the Camino routes. You will find two threads in which this was discussed here and here.

To claim that the pilgrimage were some historical significance of the paths recognized and preserved for their cultural value by the Galician government is, I'm sorry, to misunderstand it entirely.

You might, perhaps, read the words that I used and from which you have very selectively quoted, because I don't have the time or energy right now to deal with your misconstructions of my posts. I said nothing about any of the things that followed this post, nor did I infer them. More, you completely omit a key phrase which I have highlighted below for your memory.

historical significance of the paths recognized and preserved for their cultural value by the Galician government, and which the cathedral authorities have sanctioned for the purpose of awarding a Compostela.

I don't think further discussion is going to keep us close to the topic. I think that you are being side-tracked in your own misunderstanding of the relationship between the cathedral sanctioned routes and Galician heritage laws.