LIVE from the Camino They are recommending the Valcarlos route tomorrow, how foolish would it be to go Napoleon?

[Antnix1]

I went back the the office and got more details and made the right decision

^^ great!

I'm sure some people who were scared out of doing the mountain route were the same ones who arrived to roncevalles without a bed booked. It's all well and good saying "the Camino provides" but to me, the best thing the Camino can provide is a lesson and often that's a little planning goes a long way.

 

[VNwalking]

tiresome reading "i didn't bring snacks and to my disappointment there was no mercadona on the Napoleon route. Having only had a small breakfast of cafe con leche and tostado, i was now hungry and miserable. Fortunately a kind pilgrim, fed up listening to me moan, gifted me a granola bar. I foraged some wild blackberries and had a feast overlooking the Pyrenees. The camino provides "

I've never read a post with those words, actually.

A bit of compassion goes a long way.

 

[Buniontrotter]

They are expecting snow at altitude. Talking to other pilgrims, some are going Napoleon anyway. Thoughts? I was hoping to go Napoleon myself.

I might add, lots of communication barriers at the pilgrims office. Most volunteers didn’t speak English or Spanish. Might get some people in trouble if they didn’t understand.

UPDATE. I went back at 7:55 pm and spoke the the American girl. She said absolutely no passage via Napoleon because of snow. She explained it well. Glad I went back. She was impossibly busy when I was here earlier so I didn’t get a chance to speak to her.

Some are going anyway? That is not a good idea. The advice is not given to annoy people but to protect them. There are times that pilgrims have died there because they lost their way in the snow or due to hypothermia. Others have been luckier and were rescued by the bomberos.
Is it fair to knowingly take the risk and let others pick up the pieces for you? As recent as the 18th of April 3 pilgrims had to be rescued because of hypothermia. Just saying...
I have crossed 3 times at this route. The first time was on May 2nd 2009 the first day the pilgrims office said it was ok to go. There was such a dense fog that one could not see more than 1 yard ahead, a very scarey experience and knee high snow in places. I wouldn't like to repeat that. The second time in 2014, the weather was good when we first set out, then unexpectedly a storm came out of nowhere. Things got ripped out of our packs, people got blown over, some got knocked down hills, broken ankles toes and shoulders. Nothing more serious TG. I could not move against the force of the wind and my husband had to pull me across by the walking poles bent low down. On my own, I would not have made it and had to press myself against the rocks waiting for the storm to subside.
Last September was the first time the weather was ideal and it was spectacular. Don't let anyone say it is overrated, it is not. When it's good, it is magic and worth every step. But if you are advised to take the Valcarlos route, then that is what you have to do. Don't put yourself or others at risk
Buen camino

 

[Kathar1na]

The first time was on May 2nd 2009 the first day the pilgrims office said it was ok to go. There was such a dense fog that one could not see more than 1 yard ahead [...] and knee high snow in places. [...] The second time in 2014, the weather was good when we first set out, then unexpectedly a storm came out of nowhere. Things got ripped out of our packs, people got blown over

You are right: All these things are realities: knee-high deep snow in early May and it all fell in a short time on green grass with no previous snow present; people who actually get blown over by a very strong and short wind gust and fall; rain ponchos that get actually shred to long strips.

More generally and not addressed to you personally: Those who have never seen or experienced such incidents extrapolate on the basis of their own experience which may have been very different and then generalise on the basis of their thinking.

The very detailed weather forecast - I am speaking only of Meteoblue and Viewweather - for yesterday had still not reached their highest probability levels in the morning of yesterday (1 May). Viewweather, which has a link on the website of the SJPP Pilgrim Office, predicted 20-40 cm of snow on the Bentarte and Lepoeder passes, and Meteoblue had an orange warning for a high quantity of precipitation. These forecasts get adapted to the newest calculations of the powerful weather computer models (such as ECMWF, ICON, GFS, UKMO, GEM etc) every 3 hours or so. I noticed yesterday late in the afternoon that Viewweather had lowered their forecast for snow height for the day and Meteoblue had removed their orange warning label for precipitation.

I guess that the people who run the SJPP Pilgrim Office have a larger overview and an experience of many years. I guess that they feel responsible for the well-being of the hundreds of pilgrims who come daily to their office and seek information and advice for the next day, for their first day in a foreign climate, on foreign soil and for doing perhaps something that they had never done before: an outdoor hike of some 24 km with an altitude difference of some 1000 m up followed with some 300 m down and with no "escape route" at the point when they are most likely to be physically tired.

We here on the forum with our opinions based on our limited actual walking on a single day once or in a year now and then - how much do we actually know that is relevant for the well-being of hundreds of pilgrims and how responsible do we feel for the well-being of all of them? And I have not yet even mentioned empathy.

​

 

[Kathar1na]

a storm came out of nowhere. Things got ripped out of our packs, people got blown over, some got knocked down hills, broken ankles toes and shoulders. Nothing more serious TG. I could not move against the force of the wind and my husband had to pull me across by the walking poles bent low down. On my own, I would not have made it and had to press myself against the rocks waiting for the storm to subside.

You describe this situation very vividly.

Just for info: Luckily, for yesterday 1 May, no high velocity wind gusts had been predicted throughout the day.

And a general remark that I am now tempted to add for those who have never experienced a similar situation and think that it is exaggerated: Could it be that you are an 89 kg male pilgrim and not a 52 kg female pilgrim?

 

[VNwalking]

I cannot like these last 2 posts enough, @Kathar1na.

If you have never experienced extreme weather, it can't be imagined. So @garlicbread , you were very wise to heed the advice of the pilgrim's office and hope these posts are heeded by people coming behind you.

No-one is trying to 'scare off' pilgrims unnecessarily, for no good reason. It's humility and wisdom to put aside a cherished desire in the service of safety - yours and (especially important) that of the ever-patient and ever-responsive bombeiros in Burguette.

 

[Antnix1]

Could it be that you are an 89 kg male pilgrim and not a 52 kg female pilgrim?

You mention earlier people getting blown over and ponchos ripped to shreds.
I'd probably suggest they're the sort of people with the wrong gear.
A poncho will act like a sail if it catches the wind. I know some ponchos have better designs with drawstrings but my preference would be a jacket.

 

[LTfit]

From my recent experience, if the weather doesn't allow any views, the really isn't anythning worthwhile on the Napoleon Route - just a lot of climbing, cold, and slight misery

I disagree. My first trip over the Pyrenees, in July I might add, was completely clouded over and misty. I've no idea how many feet ahead of me were visible but I realized then and there the importance of those polls with an emergency telephone number. Luckily by the time I reached the top I got a quick glimpse of the mountains. It was magical anyway but in the snow and heavy winds the situation would be entirely different.

Eight years later in mid October I crossed with glorious weather, people were even in t-shirts! By the time we reached Atapuerca we were in a snow storm. One just never knows.

 

[VNwalking]

I'd probably suggest they're the sort of people with the wrong gear.

Wrong gear doesn't blow people over.

 

[Antnix1]

Wrong gear doesn't blow people over.

Silly comment but I'll bite.

Wind generally doesn't blow people over. A gust of wind can cause someone to lose their balance and fall. This risk can be reduced by avoiding wearing ponchos in windy conditions as their design can catch wind.

 

[VNwalking]

Wind generally doesn't blow people over.

No of course not. Not generally.
But conditions up there in bad weather are anything but general. You may have never been blown over by the wind. Assuming limited experience is universal truth is the source of many disasters.

 

[Monasp]

They are expecting snow at altitude. Talking to other pilgrims, some are going Napoleon anyway. Thoughts? I was hoping to go Napoleon myself.

I might add, lots of communication barriers at the pilgrims office. Most volunteers didn’t speak English or Spanish. Might get some people in trouble if they didn’t understand.

UPDATE. I went back at 7:55 pm and spoke the the American girl. She said absolutely no passage via Napoleon because of snow. She explained it well. Glad I went back. She was impossibly busy when I was here earlier so I didn’t get a chance to speak to her.

Please bear with these VOLUNTEERS if they are not fluent in your language. They come at their own expense to help pilgrims starting out on the Way.
Perhaps you too could come and reinforce the English teams.
In French we say "la critique est aisée mais l'art est difficile".

 

[BRSmith13]

They are expecting snow at altitude. Talking to other pilgrims, some are going Napoleon anyway. Thoughts? I was hoping to go Napoleon myself.

I might add, lots of communication barriers at the pilgrims office. Most volunteers didn’t speak English or Spanish. Might get some people in trouble if they didn’t understand.

UPDATE. I went back at 7:55 pm and spoke the the American girl. She said absolutely no passage via Napoleon because of snow. She explained it well. Glad I went back. She was impossibly busy when I was here earlier so I didn’t get a chance to speak to her.

Get Google translate. A life saver

 

[BRSmith13]

I absolutely did not have the right gear for napoleon. I honestly just needed more details about the snow situation. A light dusting I could deal with. Heavy snow would be a problem.

I went back the the office and got more details and made the right decision

1) get a weather app and look it up yourself.
2) get google translate and learn to use it
3) watch to forum
4) take ownership for your choices and situations. You are NOT on vacation
5) Buen Camino!

 

[Joe C]

However, hardly a week passes without reports that the first responder teams had to come and assist pilgrims on the Route Napoleon. These teams are in danger of becoming or being regarded as a taxi service.

That's not the only danger they are in. During my Camino in 2019, at the communal dinner in Orisson, there was an older Spanish couple. They were only walking to Roncesvalles in memory of their son, who was a first responder, who died during a rescue. The father was assisting with the pilgrims Mass in Roncesvalles the next evening.

 

[CWBuff]

OOhfff... Yeah.... Well, I am sure you are "over the hump' by now (even if you did wind up to 'walk on the spine' so to speak)
I understand and somewhat sympathize with your initial response to some remarks that you took at a bit personally. Someone in a post (or even posts) above did suggest that it is more because of the concern for folks; and to be fair - not only those who walk but those who will be dispatched to save them and actually voluntarily and selflessly putting their own lives in danger.

So... from one cat lover to another - please don't take it to heart! If you do stick around on the Forum you will find out that it is full of many hidden wonders as well as solid advices and some amusing stories; but boy-oh-boy we DO LIKE to go off half-cocked sometimes

I do wish to address the language issue. first of (again do not take it personally) my hat's off to the people who VOLUNTEER and sometimes I am sure there are days that it feels like a thankless job (if you ever worked retail surely you can relate)
That said - for what its worth here is my interpretation\understanding of the situation (again language issue only!):

Camino Frances (a play in 1 act by CWBuff)
Act I Scene 1
A Pilgrim walks into a bar....er.. PO in SJPdP. He is a <insert nationality here> and speaks only English
Behind the desk there are 3 volunteers: a Panda (who speaks only Chinese), a Kangaroo (who speaks only Taiwanese) and a Lion who... well he does not speak at all, rather he hums "in the jungle the mighty jungle" but his eyes lit up and he starts licking his lips when he sees the Pilgrim

Pilgrim (looking at all 3 somewhat lost and somewhat hopefully): Uhhh... tomorrow... Route Napoleon?
All 3 together in International Language: NO!!!!
Curtain

and so it goes

P.S. and why did someone ask if she is from America? Everyone know where garlicBread comes from, si?

now on an absolute serious note, @garlicbread - would you be so kind as to tell us how it went for you? Hopefully reasonably smooth!

Good luck, dear heart, Buen Camino!

 

[J Willhaus]

OOhfff... Yeah.... Well, I am sure you are "over the hump' by now (even if you did wind up to 'walk on the spine' so to speak)
I understand and somewhat sympathize with your initial response to some remarks that you took at a bit personally. Someone in a post (or even posts) above did suggest that it is more because of the concern for folks; and to be fair - not only those who walk but those who will be dispatched to save them and actually voluntarily and selflessly putting their own lives in danger.

So... from one cat lover to another - please don't take it to heart! If you do stick around on the Forum you will find out that it is full of many hidden wonders as well as solid advices and some amusing stories; but boy-oh-boy we DO LIKE to go off half-cocked sometimes

I do wish to address the language issue. first of (again do not take it personally) my hat's off to the people who VOLUNTEER and sometimes I am sure there are days that it feels like a thankless job (if you ever worked retail surely you can relate)
That said - for what its worth here is my interpretation\understanding of the situation (again language issue only!):

Camino Frances (a play in 1 act by CWBuff)
Act I Scene 1
A Pilgrim walks into a bar....er.. PO in SJPdP. He is a <insert nationality here> and speaks only English
Behind the desk there are 3 volunteers: a Panda (who speaks only Chinese), a Kangaroo (who speaks only Taiwanese) and a Lion who... well he does not speak at all, rather he hums "in the jungle the mighty jungle" but his eyes lit up and he starts licking his lips when he sees the Pilgrim

Pilgrim (looking at all 3 somewhat lost and somewhat hopefully): Uhhh... tomorrow... Route Napoleon?
All 3 together in International Language: NO!!!!
Curtain

and so it goes

P.S. and why did someone ask if she is from America? Everyone know where garlicBread comes from, si?

now on an absolute serious note, @garlicbread - would you be so kind as to tell us how it went for you? Hopefully reasonably smooth!

Good luck, dear heart, Buen Camino!

Yes, she did on another thread.

 

[garlicbread]

OOhfff... Yeah.... Well, I am sure you are "over the hump' by now (even if you did wind up to 'walk on the spine' so to speak)
I understand and somewhat sympathize with your initial response to some remarks that you took at a bit personally. Someone in a post (or even posts) above did suggest that it is more because of the concern for folks; and to be fair - not only those who walk but those who will be dispatched to save them and actually voluntarily and selflessly putting their own lives in danger.

So... from one cat lover to another - please don't take it to heart! If you do stick around on the Forum you will find out that it is full of many hidden wonders as well as solid advices and some amusing stories; but boy-oh-boy we DO LIKE to go off half-cocked sometimes

I do wish to address the language issue. first of (again do not take it personally) my hat's off to the people who VOLUNTEER and sometimes I am sure there are days that it feels like a thankless job (if you ever worked retail surely you can relate)
That said - for what its worth here is my interpretation\understanding of the situation (again language issue only!):

Camino Frances (a play in 1 act by CWBuff)
Act I Scene 1
A Pilgrim walks into a bar....er.. PO in SJPdP. He is a <insert nationality here> and speaks only English
Behind the desk there are 3 volunteers: a Panda (who speaks only Chinese), a Kangaroo (who speaks only Taiwanese) and a Lion who... well he does not speak at all, rather he hums "in the jungle the mighty jungle" but his eyes lit up and he starts licking his lips when he sees the Pilgrim

Pilgrim (looking at all 3 somewhat lost and somewhat hopefully): Uhhh... tomorrow... Route Napoleon?
All 3 together in International Language: NO!!!!
Curtain

and so it goes

P.S. and why did someone ask if she is from America? Everyone know where garlicBread comes from, si?

now on an absolute serious note, @garlicbread - would you be so kind as to tell us how it went for you? Hopefully reasonably smooth!

Good luck, dear heart, Buen Camino!

Lol I love it. Of course if every panda an kangaroo screamed no at me that would be pretty clear. It just wasn’t clear if it was a soft suggestion or hard suggestion.

Panda shrugs and points to Valcarlos route? Not quite as clear to me!

Indeed others I spoke to seemed to get a soft suggestion or a “do whatever you want!” From the pilgrims office that day. I did talk some people out of Nápolean.

But yes I did take some of these responses unreasonably personally. Everyone has good intentions here.

I posted another thread on my experience! Check it out.

 

[Kirkie]

Lol I love it. Of course if every panda an kangaroo screamed no at me that would be pretty clear. It just wasn’t clear if it was a soft suggestion or hard suggestion.

Panda shrugs and points to Valcarlos route? Not quite as clear to me!

Indeed others I spoke to seemed to get a soft suggestion or a “do whatever you want!” From the pilgrims office that day. I did talk some people out of Nápolean.

But yes I did take some of these responses unreasonably personally. Everyone has good intentions here.

I posted another thread on my experience! Check it out.

Before I sit back from the keyboard, I suggest that you have a look, in your spare time, at the type of posts from some of those members who responded to your initial appeal for thoughts. Flat internet words can be confusing, but looking carefully, you might detect impartial and objective input, and thus be able to separate it from a personal opinion.
I rest my case!

 

[Kathar1na]

Indeed others I spoke to seemed to get a soft suggestion or a “do whatever you want!” From the pilgrims office that day. I did talk some people out of Nápolean

Hi again, @garlicbread. You are a good observer. And you dig for information. And you took the information that you got in this thread in your stride. Thank you also for your feedback about your actual walking from SJPP to Roncesvalles in the newer thread you started. As someone wrote already, this is much appreciated. All too often, posters ask for information or advice but never bother to report back in the end.

You must be in Pamplona now. Ultreya y suseya - forwards and upwards, the Alto del Perdón is awaiting you . No snowflakes, a lot warmer and perhaps not a drop of rain during the morning and early afternoon. I hope you can enjoy great views over the land where you walked already and where you are going to walk and maybe catch a glimpse of the snow-covered tops of the Pyrenees on the horizon to the north.

Buen Camino!

 

[garlicbread]

Hi again, @garlicbread. You are a good observer. And you dig for information. And you took the information that you got in this thread in your stride. Thank you also for your feedback about your actual walking from SJPP to Roncesvalles in the newer thread you started. As someone wrote already, this is much appreciated. All too often, posters ask for information or advice but never bother to report back in the end.

You must be in Pamplona now. Ultreya y suseya - forwards and upwards, the Alto del Perdón is awaiting you . No snowflakes, a lot warmer and perhaps not a drop of rain during the morning and early afternoon. I hope you can enjoy great views over the land where you walked already and where you are going to walk and maybe catch a glimpse of the snow-covered tops of the Pyrenees on the horizon to the north.

Buen Camino!

Thank you

 

[Gillean]

They are expecting snow at altitude. Talking to other pilgrims, some are going Napoleon anyway. Thoughts? I was hoping to go Napoleon myself.

I might add, lots of communication barriers at the pilgrims office. Most volunteers didn’t speak English or Spanish. Might get some people in trouble if they didn’t understand.

UPDATE. I went back at 7:55 pm and spoke the the American girl. She said absolutely no passage via Napoleon because of snow. She explained it well. Glad I went back. She was impossibly busy when I was here earlier so I didn’t get a chance to speak to her.

This is from 2013 on the Route Napoleon. A beautiful day but the day before was stormy. The icicles left over were horizontal not vertical. Conditions can get extreme and Mother Nature can be a real b*tch in the Pyrenees.

 

[gkshrode]

Please...be wise and take the safest route.
As someone who has done the full Camino, I opted for the lower route through Valcarlos and I am glad I did (Sept-Oct 2022). We learned that on the day we opted for the lower route, several people had to be airlifted off the higher route due to high winds.
So, what is your goal? If you're into this trek as a hot shot or an adrenaline junkie, please go somewhere else.

 

[Simperegrina]

Please...be wise and take the safest route.
As someone who has done the full Camino, I opted for the lower route through Valcarlos and I am glad I did (Sept-Oct 2022). We learned that on the day we opted for the lower route, several people had to be airlifted off the higher route due to high winds.
So, what is your goal? If you're into this trek as a hot shot or an adrenaline junkie, please go somewhere else.

The OP walked several days ago, and took the Valcarlos route. She posted about it.

So I rather think she doesn’t require the suggestion she go elsewhere.

 

[SabsP]

Please...be wise and take the safest route.
As someone who has done the full Camino, I opted for the lower route through Valcarlos and I am glad I did (Sept-Oct 2022). We learned that on the day we opted for the lower route, several people had to be airlifted off the higher route due to high winds.
So, what is your goal? If you're into this trek as a hot shot or an adrenaline junkie, please go somewhere else.

The OP chose the sensible option.

Btw there is no " full " Camino, the start from St-Jean-Pied-de-Port is just a start and not THE start.

 

[Antnix1]

So, what is your goal? If you're into this trek as a hot shot or an adrenaline junkie, please go somewhere else.

Ackshually, no one has any business telling someone what they can or can't do. Adrenaline junkies are welcome to skydive every day. I'd find it odd and off-putting but once they're taking appropriate precautions re safety I'd say leave them to it.

 

[dougfitz]

Ackshually, no one has any business telling someone what they can or can't do. Adrenaline junkies are welcome to skydive every day. I'd find it odd and off-putting but once they're taking appropriate precautions re safety I'd say leave them to it.

I have the view that no-one here should be telling other forum members that they cannot express an opinion, provide advice based on their experience or make a request.

And, actually, quite a lot of people who make a business of telling others what to do have a legitimate right to do that, and to expect compliance with those directions. It is only in a relatively narrow range of matters that our lives are not subject to some form or other of governance that guides, directs or compels us in various ways. The notion that we are free to do as we wish is really rather quaint!

 

[CWBuff]

Btw there is no " full " Camino, the start from St-Jean-Pied-de-Port is just a start and not THE start.

You're right
The SJPdP --> SdC is not the "full" Camino, it's The WHOLE Camino

 

[Antnix1]

I have the view that no-one here should be telling other forum members that they cannot express an opinion, provide advice based on their experience or make a request.

And, actually, quite a lot of people who make a business of telling others what to do have a legitimate right to do that, and to expect compliance with those directions. It is only in a relatively narrow range of matters that our lives are not subject to some form or other of governance that guides, directs or compels us in various ways. The notion that we are free to do as we wish is really rather quaint!

I know I'm posting under an emotional topic but re-read "what is your goal? If you're into this trek as a hot shot or an adrenaline junkie, please go somewhere else.". Yes people are entitled to express their opinion and others are within their right to tell them they don't always need to express their opinion. It doesn't need another fingerwagger to add their 2c and at some stage everyone should just stop arguing and mind their own business. But here we are.

In the context of dangerous conditions but someone being well-prepared, if they want to trek it blindfolded on a unicycle and can do so reasonably safely with no risk to others, it's their own business. We're getting into the area of telling people how to walk "their camino", what's a real pilgrim, and all that nonsense.

As for legitimate right, well that trail is closed for a good part of the year and it is right to expect compliance with that.
Oh, and it's also correct for forum members to have an opinion on that.. yet in another thread i was told i couldn't even express an opinion on it being closed until April . Accompanied by loads of thumbs up and buen camino reactions.

 

[Juno]

This is a common misconception among pilgrims: That the pass of the Napoleon route gets closed and opened by some unknown authority throughout the year.

This is not the case.

From November to March, the higher altitude section is closed by law. The Spanish authorities issue a decree every year.

During the first week of April or so, the pass is often closed for passage by nature: meter-high snowbanks that have not yet melted, extremely muddy soil - it will slow down pilgrims, especially those who are unequipped, unexperienced, unfit, and unfamiliar with the weather conditions and the terrain conditions at higher altitude. They encounter these conditions when they are already tired from the long drawn out ascent.

Throughout the year wind, cold, rain, hail, snow, thunderstorms, dense fog create similar conditions. That's why there are frequent incidents where pilgrims are too exhausted and too cold to continue and the rescue teams have to be mobilised - despite the clear recommendations of the Pilgrim Office to walk via Valcarlos.

I agree and not to forget white outs, where visibility is so poor you can’t see anything in front of you. Do as directed by those of us who know about mountain conditions. It’s a tough walk in any case and you need the right equipment.

 

[Kathar1na]

Just in case readers get confused by the thread title and the ongoing discussion about the weather situation that had to be reckoned with on the highest parts of the Route Napoleon about a week ago, and on other aspects: No snow is expected on the higher parts of the Napoleon route for the coming week or so; on some days it may still feel a little colder than you might expect during the day, and towards the end of this week temperatures could read 21 ºC and in the afternoon it could even feel a little bit warmer. Be prepared for it, perhaps think about the water you wish to take with you. Buen Camino!

It is also expected to be considerably warmer in SJPP than in Roncesvalles. Just for info.

 

[VNwalking]

The notion that we are free to do as we wish is really rather quaint!

I would have used stronger language but agree entirely.

 

[ivar]

I think most has been said in this thread. Deleted a few posts. Will close it before it goes overboard.